10 Most Influential Pakistanis since 1947

Discussion in 'The Pavilion' started by 1137moiz, Aug 31, 2013.

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  1. ASLI-PATHAN
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    ASLI-PATHAN Cricistan Khan

    Apr 26, 2011
    63,379

    I can't bang my head against a wall. You are arguing just for the sake of it. I made my point clear and you know that.
     
  2. 1137moiz
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    1137moiz Tracer Bullet

    Jun 30, 2011
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    Because the Protestant Fundamentalist Movement was very closely linked to the particular theological doctrines of Protestantism that its adherents believed were at odds with more modernist interpretations. Most Protestants aren't fundamentalists either, of course, but the term fundamentalist, at least originally, has more to do with semantics of Protestantism non existent in other faiths

    That said, the issue is not so much the term fundamentalism. If you want to call a conservative a fundamentalist, it may be a bit inaccurate but the point gets across, you're saying it's a Muslim version of the phenomena. But even that does not translate into extremist. Most extremists in fact have open contempt for conservative Muslims, who they see as not being active enough or being too old-fashioned. The House of Saud, for instance, are conservative Muslims (who most Muslims nowadays tend to at least partially dislike), but the Al-Qaeda group that opposes them are extremist. Most Pakistanis are generally conservative Muslims, as are most Afghans and most of Syria's Sunnis, at least (I don't know enough about other sects to comment). A small but significant minority are extremists. Painting any conservative Muslim as extremist is not only factually wrong but enables and legitimizes the extremists.
     
  3. Aditya Khanna
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    Aditya Khanna Youngsta Beauty

    Mar 4, 2010
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    More wishy washy stuff. You made a big claim and cannot seem to back it up.

    What are these "semantics of protestantism" that precludes the applicability of fundamentalism in the case of islam?

    Your second paragraph is so vacuous, it's not worth replying.

    How can one seriously converse with a person who makes unchecked, ridiculous and ofcourse unsubstantiated generalizations like the this- "Most extremists in fact have open contempt for conservative Muslims, who they see as not being active enough or being too old-fashioned"?
     
  4. Aditya Khanna
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    Aditya Khanna Youngsta Beauty

    Mar 4, 2010
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    You cannot bang your head against facts that I clearly presented before you.
     
  5. ASLI-PATHAN
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    ASLI-PATHAN Cricistan Khan

    Apr 26, 2011
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    Yeah facts where you completely ignored the meaning of the word but banking your arguments on synonyms. :fp
     
  6. 1137moiz
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    1137moiz Tracer Bullet

    Jun 30, 2011
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    Lol. The last "vacuous" paragraph has been verified by so many current examples--conflicts between Mujahedine leaders like (conservative but moderate) Burhanuddin Rabbani and (extremist) Gulbadin Hekmatyar probably the most famous, and also conflicts among Taliban leaders such as the (moderate) Abdul-Ghani Baradar and the (extremist) Daadullah Akhund, or Osama bin Laden and the Saudi family (which for all its faults is not an extremist but is a decidedly conservative group) which led to the foundation of Al-Qaeda, or the current conflict in Syria between the mainly conservative, AND moderate, Sunni-dominated (but including other groups including prominent Christians) initial opposition and the more radical, extreme elements that have joined it such as Iraqi Al-Qaeda, versus the very liberal but extremely repressive Baathist regime? You clearly have no clue what you're on about, I can give you so many examples out of just modern history it'd make your empty head spin. Look up ANY example of the struggles in the Muslim world of the last 20 years in particular, and the last 50 or 60 years more generally, and I'll give you an example. It's a very broad and common recurrence. But I won't let facts tarnish your lovely delusions

    Regarding the fundamentalism issue, I don't know about the bare semantics of Protestantism, but I'll present the basics as I understand em: because Protestantism grew as a social and religious movement against what they saw as Catholic oppression, Protestant revivalists in the late nineteenth century sought to retrieve this (against the more modernist, sometimes anti-religious trends) by a "back to the basics" approach. Again, I think fundamentalism outside of this is a flawed term, but you can still use it, doesn't defeat my argument. Again, masterful hair-splitting from you with absolutely zilch knowledge to back it up.
     
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  7. 1137moiz
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    1137moiz Tracer Bullet

    Jun 30, 2011
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    Ignore him yaar. At first I thought he was interested in a genuine discussion, seem he just wants to split hairs and cover his rump when he finds he's way, way out of his league
     
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  8. Chishti
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    Chishti Formerly 'Winsome'

    Jan 27, 2012
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    You're a genius
     
  9. Aditya Khanna
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    Aditya Khanna Youngsta Beauty

    Mar 4, 2010
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    A massive LOL right back at you. :rofl

    I mean, you arrive in this thread, all haughty and superior, proclaiming how muslims cannot be fundamental because it's a term allegedly applicable only to protestants. Bold statement but where's the proof? Oh proof, that's in "semantics of protestantism" (LOL). And what are these "semantics of protestantism"? "I don't know".

    Hahahahaha :rofl

    Spectacular. Big VACUOUS assertions which probed just a little further explodes like a hot air ballooon. I mean "semantics of proestantism" :rofl

    Your second paragraph. Where does one even begin. The circularity of your reasoning seems to be completely lost on you. I feel kind of guilty that I have made you write all those long winded paragraphs that illuminate zilch. I can see you are trying to make some kind of distinction between conservative and extreme muslim. But you are nowhere with it. You can convice yourself with those silly, fictitious examples but it fools nobody else. Osama bin laden is extreme and House of Saud is conservative. LOL! No, they are both extreme and both conservative, differing only in degrees and modus operandi. It's that simple.
     
  10. 1137moiz
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    1137moiz Tracer Bullet

    Jun 30, 2011
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    See, regarding the Protestant thing, I've read it in a few books (I can't exactly remember which since twas about a year ago when I was studying a course in religion) and therefore I didn't want to, unlike you, make some high-flying statements that may prove incorrect. In any case, you can call it fundamentalism (as I already said, even though I disagree with the term) or conservatism, it's still vastly different from extremism.

    The House of Saud are not extremists, lol. If anything, and even liberal Muslims hate them for this, they are very comfortably perched in a traditional and conservative interpretation of Islam that (their critics say, as do some of their sympathizers) serves their interests. Read up on why Al-Qaeda started. It started because the extremist Osama bin Laden was outraged that the Saudis invited in the Americans to help fight Iraq in 1990 rather than his army of Afghanistan-trained fighters.

    Please give the foundation for the bolded part. Who are you to decide what is extreme and that both are extreme?

    Read any serious book on modern Islamic thought. By which I don't mean Sean Hannity. I've given you about several modern examples of the conflict between conservative and extremist Muslims. You have not given me a single citation to back up your frankly moronic spleen. Again, I refer you to people like Salahuddin Yusuf Ayyubi, one of the very very few Muslim leaders almost unanimously respected in the West. He was a by-the-book Muslim, he learned what you may term very conservative (and, by your inane excuse for logic, therefore "extreme") Islamic law and he was described by his critics and admirers alike as being too conservative. He was also one of the most decent rulers and commanders of the time, tolerating other faiths and sects while sticking fastidiously to his own, and showing a regard for his enemies and followers alike rare even in the modern day. Was he an extremist? By your logic, apparently yes. Or Nuruddin Mahmoud Zangi, an even more conservative ruler who was widely regarded by Muslims and Christians alike as an extremely fair and just leader. Both of whom were in any case far more tolerant than apparently "liberal" (which you would call moderate) people like the then incumbent caliph Nasir Ahmed, who trained and armed "spiritual Sufi organizations" (nowadays synonymous with "liberal, tolerant" Islam) to form his own power base.

    Extremists can be both conservative and liberal (admittedly, conservative extremists outstrip liberals by a long way, but you have only to look at Pakistan's first terror squad, "Al-Zulfiqar", or the Palestinian hijackers of the early 70s, or the totally secular, modernist, liberal but vicious Baath party and its 1930s and 1940s forebears to see that it goes both ways). What you in your hopelessly uninformed diatribe have done is try to stigmatize all conservative Muslims (i.e. roughly half the world's Muslim population) as extremists, thereby validating the actual extremists and actually alienating most Muslims (since most liberal moderate Muslims at least respect differences in opinion).

    I've given you examples of:

    1) The Mujahedine vs Taliban hardliners. Burhanuddin Rabbani, Gulbadin Hekmatyar, Abdul-Rabb Sayyaf, Abdul-Haq Arsala, Mohammad Mohammadi, Abdul-Qadeer Arsala, and Yunis Khalisi were all rivals of the Taliban, and they were all conservatives, and none of them (except Hekmatyar, a notoriously nasty character who nonetheless claimed that Khomenei was an insane extremist) were extremists. Burhanuddin Rabbani was actually a professor who translated the controversial works of Sayyid Qutb, the Egyptian thinker who was also said to have been an influence on Osama bin Laden. Yet Burhanuddin was very much a moderate (and, by the way, till his recent assassination an ally of the Western-backed government in Afghanistan). That doesn't mean that liberals were extremists: on the contrary, liberal Muslim leaders like Sibghatullah Mojaddedi & Ahmed Gailani were very much moderates

    2) Intra-Taliban disputes. The Taliban are almost entirely conservative, yet there were "moderates" (acknowledged by Western and non-Again, we have the likes of Abdul-Salam Zaeef, Abdul-Ghani Baradar, Abdul-Wakil Muttawakil, Abdul-Jalil, all of whom even American intelligence forces describe as "moderate Talibs", who were nonetheless conservatives, versus Daadullah Akhund, Mansoor Bakht, Nuruddin Turabi, Abdullah Borjan and other hardliners who were perfectly willing to facilitate Al-Qaeda.

    3) The Syria opposition, which includes both moderate but conservative Muslims such as Moaz Khatib, who work alongside non-Muslims (such as George Sabra, one of the opposition leaders), and which has been more recently joined by extremist Sunnis such as Ibrahim Badri's Iraqi Al-Qaeda and other groups from Somalia and Yemen. It is the latter of whom Western governments are wary.

    I'll throw in another example: Yemen. According to the recently deposed dictator Ali Saleh (who apparently my family lived near when we lived there in my babyhood, since I was born there), all his opponents were extremists who if he was deposed would take over the country in a stream of fanatical bloodshed. Yet the Yemeni revolution's aggression was almost entirely conducted by the government, and the leader of the conservative Islamic movement that toppled Saleh was a woman named Tawakkol Karman, who is a decidedly conservative Muslim and who nobody in their right mind would describe as an extremist (she has, somewhat unusually I admit, been called an "Islamist feminist"). The majority of Yemen's populace, like those of Afghanistan and probably Pakistan (I say probably because I haven't checked yet, and here I speak more from subjective experience), are conservative but very much moderate Muslims.

    Oh, and another example. Along with the Baathist regimes of Syria and Iraq (both secular, liberal and modernist according to their own lines) which have been very oppressive, the Afghan communist puppet regime of the 1980s that saw roughly a million Afghans slaughtered in cold blood and another 6 million displaced abroad.

    If you ever get ready to take your head out of your unmentionables, I recommend William Cleveland's History of the Middle East, Mohammad Zaman's The Ulema in Islam, Michael Griffin's Reaping the Whirlwind, Leila Ahmed's A Quiet Revolution, anything by Jeremy Scahill and Michael Scheuer, and Eugene Rogan's The Arabs just so you can pretend to at least superficially know what you're blathering on about.
     
  11. 1137moiz
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    1137moiz Tracer Bullet

    Jun 30, 2011
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    As for semantics, probably the wrong word but I meant basically the intricacies. I confess my knowledge of Christian religion is fairly amateurish
     
  12. 1137moiz
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    1137moiz Tracer Bullet

    Jun 30, 2011
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    Not at all, it's just that anything pitted against Aditya Khanna 's ridiculous contributions to this thread will benefit by comparison
     
  13. Namak_Halaal
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    Namak_Halaal Banned

    May 12, 2012
    1,963
    Come on guys!

    Look at the way Aditya Khanna structures his posts. Remind you of someone?

    It's painfully obvious, he drafts a post, then does a search and replace using a thesaurus on some words.

    Hardly smart, more flowery.
     
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  14. ASLI-PATHAN
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    ASLI-PATHAN Cricistan Khan

    Apr 26, 2011
    63,379

    Yes he reminds me of one Indianfan or Indiafan on PakPassion.

    I think this is him.
     
  15. Namak_Halaal
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    Namak_Halaal Banned

    May 12, 2012
    1,963
    Or Varun.

    Indian fan is too much of an emotional wreck if you ask me. though this may explain why he may have fleeced this thread after being pulled up.
     
  16. Don Corleone
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    Don Corleone Kaptaan

    Jul 20, 2012
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    I don't think its Varun.
     
  17. Aditya Khanna
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    Aditya Khanna Youngsta Beauty

    Mar 4, 2010
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  18. 1137moiz
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    1137moiz Tracer Bullet

    Jun 30, 2011
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    I don't think it's either. I remember Aditya Sahab posting on PP some years too
     
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  19. SwingNSeam
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    SwingNSeam Boom Boom

    Sep 12, 2010
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    After being owned.. All he can do is laugh at the situation. :rofl
     

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