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Discussion in 'The Pavilion' started by MNA, Jul 17, 2018.

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  1. MNA
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    MNA Smooth Operator

    Mar 11, 2015
    3,481
    So I am not a supporter of PMLN, neither I am a fan of MNS or his brother. I accept they are corrupt, may be very corrupt. But...

    Which politician is not a corrupt entity in this country. If Imran Khan has not been proven to be corrupt, fair enough and good on him but several of his side kicks and new lotay members are part of the same corrupt and rotten system, so his capacity to claim a moral high ground is significantly weakened.

    The thing that upsets me the most, is this is 2018. In this day and age of so called media freedom and social media revolution, workers and members of one political party and being suppressed, hounded, detained and subjected to political revenge and subjugation. People are being arrested and stopped from political activities. Saddest thing is this is all happening at the behest of judiciary and military.

    No genuine democracy in the whole wide world has political interference from non-deocratic elements, but still many people, even so called educated people support such interference in Pakistan. People sitting in foreign countries enjoying all the fruits of a free and unhindered democratic system criticise implementation of same in Pakistan.

    @Mohsin I am specifically asking you, have you ever heard of COAS of the UK? I never have. please let the democratic process continue. In this process there will be generations of corrupt politicians and elections that will come and go. This is the evolution of democracy. In a country like USA, in the 1800s, there were instances of Parliament members pulling guns at each others. This is how things evolve, people and their thinkings, behaviours and attitudes change with time. Problems start when you interfere, alter or stop this process through force.

    Real change NEVER happens with revolution, but through evolution. Churchill once said the main reason for having elections is to not to change things, but to carry on with proceedings and let the natural changes and policies to take over and become part of the process.
     
  2. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

    Aug 7, 2010
    4,311
    You have nailed it down my friend. I wish Pakistanis understood this.
     
  3. Mohsin
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    Mohsin Sultan of Swing

    Feb 21, 2010
    15,144


    Evidence of interference/the 'game'...lots of twitter accounts lol

    But of course, the big bad Fauji Establishment:

    Forced Nawaz to stand in Parliament and talk about how he has all the documents showing where the money came from and how it came before not producing a single legitimate document showing his money trail

    Forced Maryam to submit FAKE documents with fonts that hadnt even been created at the time the documents were apparently dated from

    Forced the entire family to tell conflicting stories about how Maryam had no properties in Pakistan, let alone in the UK and how there were no properties in the UK at all and about how 'Alhumdulillah' the properties were indeed theres etc etc

    Forced Nawaz and co to produce a fake letter from a Qatari Sheikh who later realised that he was in the crap if he followed up with the lie and came to Pakistan to back up the claims of the letter

    Forced Imran Khan to produce his own money trail in Court and in the process, forced those in the UK/UK banks to fake these documents so Imran would look good

    All forced.

    Also, the 90s (whilst i was only a baby at the time so nothing i followe first hand) was a case of 'she is corrupt, government is gone...your turn' followed by 'he is corrupt, youre out of here...your turn'. No real case, no real evidence.

    The case was fought...the evidence against Sharif and co is clear for everyone to see...oh and PMLN completed their 5 year tenure.

    If only Pakistanis understood this...then again, if they could understand, then they wouldnt have voted the same 2 parties for the last 40odd years expecting different results and they also wouldnt come out with bakwaas such as 'khaata tho hai, lekin lagata bhi hai'.
     
  4. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

    May 12, 2016
    3,193
    my comments in red notwithstanding, would you care to evidence and reference your comments ive bolded?

    I know there were protests that were planned without local government clearances, which are required by all members of society to secure before a protest, and I know that members of all parties have been dragged up in front of the SC: the fact that those found guilty happen to be distributed more heavily in one party does not mean that there is a bias, it could very well mean that there is and was a culture of lackadaisical control and/or encouragement for widespread corruption - as evidenced by the convicted criminals at the very head of the party.

    but I would be interested to read evidence for these comments which I think I may be unfamiliar with.
     
  5. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

    Aug 7, 2010
    4,311
  6. Del
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    Del Fantasy Draft Wins: 1

    Dec 21, 2016
    12,721
    First and foremost, its a fair argument why Imran has so many "lotays" and "douchebags" around him, but didn't you see what happened in 2013 GE? Don't we all know how election process works in Pakistan? I explained it in another thread, so will reiterate here.

    In 2013 majority was backing PTI, they had young lads, who had no experience of how election works in Pakistan were given tickets from every corner of the country. Millions were going in PTI's campaign and every single person was optimistic that PTI will win. Why? because they voted them. However, on election/selection night Nawaz and Showbaz comes around 10/11 and announces on national TV that they will win. PTI was leading till that point, but in next 4/6 hours PMN-L not only came from behind and also took a massive lead.

    Doesn't it all strike anybody strange?

    Of course, there are many factors which are hidden from the eye. But one major factor is the candidates and their influence on their particular area/territory. Police, Returning officers, Schools including teachers who do the counting and thugs of the area are feeded by these political candidates. They have all the power, they're considered God's of their villages/regions/areas/territories. Whole village/region/area/territory will vote to the person they will ask.

    How on earth a young person who has no idea about all this mess could even possibly ever win against this mafia?

    Anybody who wants to win election can't win without these people.

    Now coming on one political party - PML-N. When Nawaz was flying back to Pakistan, then PML-N workers were arrested to avoid riots. Other than this, I haven't heard anything based upon which I would say that PML-N (or any other party) has been suppressed and refrained from their election campaign - if anybody has some details, then please do share.

    And who is taking political revenge, establishment or supreme court?

    Coming on democracy, nobody is against democratic system at all, but tell me,

    In which democratic country politicians become millionaire/billionaire/trillionaire in few years?
    In which democratic country politicians do money laundering?
    In which democratic country politicians establish real estate empires from taxpayers money?
    In which democratic system only siblings, sons, daughter and other relatives of party leader are allowed/elected/selected to hold key positions in their respective parties and all other seniors are ignored?
    What kind of democracy is this wherein, PM of Punjab Showbaz Sharif use Punjab police for killing?
    In which democratic country politicians use police to do incident like model town?
    What kind of democracy system is this, where politicians spend millions and billions on metro, orange lines, motorways and other such projects, but people don't even have access of clean drinking water?
    What kind of democracy system is this where there is no focus and vision towards healthcare and education system.

    And the list will goes on and on ...

    Generally politicians are corrupt in every country. Here in Canada, there have been numerous ministers, including finance minister, who is shady but they're nowhere near as bad as Pakistani politicians who have inflicted severe damage to Pakistan in past 25/30 years. In Canada, corruption is not as bad as it is in Pakistan, because taxpayers get basic necessities of live without fighting for it, and this happens because, taxpayers money is spend on them. I am certain this is how taxpayers money is spend on them in countries like US and UK. Can I say the same for Pakistan, absolutely not.

    Accountability process has kicked off eventually in Pakistan, but its a shame that people are swamped producing conspiracy theories day in day out. Nawaz didn't just hurt Pakistan from years, he was the ring leader of corruption, that why he was called Godfather, which means everything under his nose happened with his concerns. When head of a department, an organization or an institute is corrupt then there is no fear in those who work under him. People under him will never hesitate to do wrongdoing in their capacity, because they know that the whole system is rotten starting from the top. This is why its necessary to start process of accountability from the top to send a message and set an example. Many of these politicians, head of departments and institute would have never though in their wild dreams that Nawaz and his regime will be brought to justice, because goons like Nawaz, Zardari and powerful people like Malik Riaz were considered above the law - certainly this has changed.

    Also, on same accountability note, people are questioning the timing of decision against Nawaz (like is a Saint), but nobody is able to answer a rudimentary question. When the decision should've come? 1) Before GE elections (which has happened), 2) After GE elections?

    Bhutto family has been in power in Sindh since almost forever, Nawaz became PM 3rd time, why life's of civilians haven't improved in last 30 years in the country? Its because, these people are not interested in it. Politics and like business to them, they come in power to make money, to multiply their assets.

    People are sick and tried with these thugs and looters, because there is no hope from these so called 'leaders'. They invest billions during and before elections, so that they can make trillions when they hold position in public office. People are fed up with their ugly faces and the slogan 'agli bari phir zardari' / ' aya aya sheer aya'.

    @Shahzad.Firdous @Shahzebayub @mohsin88ali @Phenom @Passionate Pakistani @godzilla @Mohsin @Zeeraq

    Did I say something wrong here? Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
  7. Zeeraq
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    Zeeraq Talented

    Apr 28, 2012
    1,252
    Why can't these PML-N/PPP supporters think that this process of accountability is happening because of democracy?
     
  8. Del
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    Del Fantasy Draft Wins: 1

    Dec 21, 2016
    12,721
    Right, and also, if its selected accountability against a particular party, then why PML-N completed their 5 year tenure in the first place? Its not against democracy, its against the biggest corrupt family of the country.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
  9. Shahzad.Firdous
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    Shahzad.Firdous Cornered Tiger

    May 29, 2010
    12,456
    Bhai 6 baar Punjab mein govt banayi aur 3 baar center mein aur Imran Khan 22 years se akela larh raha hai pure mafia ke against and you are saying that you are discriminated. You are the one discriminating real Pakistanis!!
     
  10. Zeeraq
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    Zeeraq Talented

    Apr 28, 2012
    1,252
    Their is no selective accountability happening. The Panama Leaks happened and Sharifs & Bhuttos weren't able to burn/steal the evidence like they usually do in Pakistan.

    Imran Khan then relentlessly pursued the case and got them disqualified & convicted.
     
  11. Zeeraq
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    Zeeraq Talented

    Apr 28, 2012
    1,252
    Their is a big difference between 90's and today, Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif have always done 'muk-muka' politics and Imran Khan isn't here for that. PTI would never have been able to break 2 party system if both of those other parties weren't rotten to the core.
     
  12. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

    May 12, 2016
    3,193

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