British Politics Thread

Discussion in 'The Pavilion' started by ElRaja, May 21, 2014.

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  1. ElRaja
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    ElRaja Talented

    Jan 12, 2013
    2,776
    yep, ive spoken to mates who grew up in paris and the way they mention the outer city ghettos rings a bell with me. hackney at the time was a predominantly black and bengali neighbourhood in terms of immigrant communities, crime was rife, it was dilapidated, but somehow the people just got on with their lives.

    i dont want to sound like a bleeding heart but that neighborhood, that area, the people are gone. completely gentrified, for the objective betterment of the city, but it feels like a part of my history has been erased, i havn't been back for a very long time.

    thats why i get back to the original topic, why im in favour of grammer schools, theres one literally 10 min car ride away from where i live now, not an up market area by any means, but the kids at that school tend to do really well because if they are clever enough to get in they have a huge advantage living in the school catchment area. every borough, or area deserves that imho.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016
  2. Bella
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    Bella Youngsta Beauty

    Jan 24, 2010
    379
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/07/north-poor-brexit-myths
    Just read this article which breaks down the brexit vote which I found quite interesting.



     
  3. PakistanZindabad!
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    PakistanZindabad! Whispering Death

    Sep 29, 2012
    9,982
    Why'd you agree with this? I'm curious as I went to a high school which is in the bottom 10% of the country and sounds like you had a similar experience
     
  4. ElRaja
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    ElRaja Talented

    Jan 12, 2013
    2,776
    because i think i had the ability to get into a grammar, and would have gotten better grades if i wasn't messing around and actually had teachers (excluding a few here and there) who knew what they were teaching.

    ive also seen how much easier it was for kids from private schools to get into uni, and get work experience through friends and contacts. most of my school peers hadn't even completed (or started) uni by the time i graduated.

    my school killed my aspirations, it wasn't until i got to college i thought i could actually get a good job. in school i never had any real idea what i wanted to do, nor was there anyone to guide me.

    loads of little things, as ive said before, i caught a few lucky breaks and ended up ok, but it could have all as easily gone wrong, and the time i wasted in secondary would have played a big part in it.
     
  5. Markhor
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    Markhor Talented

    May 9, 2010
    2,701
    So Corbyn wins a second mandate.

    My view was that a leadership election was needed after the PLP rebellion.

    However I had no idea it would be as bitter, bloody and divisive as its transpired and I'm glad its over.

    Corbyn needed his authority reaffirmed. He now must reach out to the PLP rebels and the rebels need to accept the result and work with him. He deserves a free run until the 2020 election. If Corbyn goes, it should be done by the electorate in a general election not a band of MPs.
     
  6. ComradeVenom
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    ComradeVenom Tracer Bullet

    Jul 24, 2012
    6,407
    The thing is @Markhor almost all of us armchair commentators saw this coming. I wonder what inspired those memebers of the shadow cabinet and owen smith to rebel against their leader at precisely the same time that the Tories were in dissaray.

    Can we really have much hope that any of the rebels are capable of forming Govt when they cannot even guage public opinion on a Corbyn victory that we knew was a certainty.

    All those rebels should be deselected. Labour will be out of power for a long time..not because of Corbyn but because of a rebellion that very few understood the need for.
     
  7. Markhor
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    Markhor Talented

    May 9, 2010
    2,701
    Disagree, this is not the time for purges and vengeance. The Party will descend into another civil war. Part of the reconciliation should be that the threat of deselections is removed. Pro and anti-Corbyn factions need to wipe the slate clean and unite against the Conservatives.

    FWIW, I think Labour face an existential crisis regardless of leader and I'm intrigued to read your views on this @ComradeVenom and what the solutions are. The centre-left is being squeezed across Europe by two things.

    First is the rise of insurgent leftist parties like Podemos and Syriza have exploited anger against extreme austerity and to the expense of mainstream left parties. Then you have UKIP, National Front and far-right parties in Scandinavia, Poland, Italy and elsewhere capturing parts of white, traditionally centre-left voting, working class folk on back of anti-immigration/Muslim sentiments.

    Here, you see Labour wiped out in Scotland by SNP and threatened by UKIP in England, and by Plaid in Wales. Labour have got to do what the Democratic Party has successfully done in the US and rebuild their vote bank. They need a progressive alliance of socialists, liberals, try to claw back white working class votes, low wage workers, public sector workers, trade unionists, students, BMEs and small businesses. Right now, Labour's vote is so fragmented that in GE15 they only won amongst young people and DE social class.
     
  8. PakistanZindabad!
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    PakistanZindabad! Whispering Death

    Sep 29, 2012
    9,982
    Didn't see this until now.
    It's weird to me, going to school now most wouldn't want to go to a grammar school me included, I personally think you can get good grades anywhere and I've always tried to put that into place myself
     
  9. ElRaja
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    ElRaja Talented

    Jan 12, 2013
    2,776
    why would you not want to go to a grammar school?

    yes you can get good grades, however when you reach the age where you are job searching, you will realise how grades in of themselves count for little.

    your contacts, your ability to carry yourself with intellectual confidence, you extra curricular exposures, and the university you have been to count for more, and all these things are affected by the school and college you go to, and invariably public schooling is the least likely to help set up any of the former for you.
     
  10. MNA
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    MNA Smooth Operator

    Mar 11, 2015
    3,158
    Pathetic so pathetic of parliamentary Labour party. Only few months ago nearly all the Shadow Cabinet resigned siting total non confidence in Corbyn. Now he wins and INCREASES his lead in the re-election. One wonders what got into MPs mind? Total waste of time and resources which could have been better spent fighting the Tories. This shows how insanely out of touch the Labour politicians are with the common members, this is beyond ridiculous.
     
  11. MNA
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    MNA Smooth Operator

    Mar 11, 2015
    3,158
    Exactly.

    Also the public state schools have been one of the major drivers of inequality between rick and poor families, with children from poor and deprived areas confined to poorly performing schools and those from richer and posh areas enjoying the higher ranked schools. At least with grammar school, the admissions were based on passing the 11-plus test. The distance from school - the tape measure and estate agent system - was not the decider.
     
  12. ElRaja
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    ElRaja Talented

    Jan 12, 2013
    2,776
    im not the biggest fan of andrew neil, granted his observation is on a narrow section of public life, it is pertinent nonetheless, im quoting below:

    why are all former grammar school students, including the current PM who came from a fairly regular background herself (daughter of a vicar) such champions of grammar schooling if it did not work.

    enforcing equality by denying the most talented kids opportunity is not the way to go.

    @MNA @PakistanZindabad!
     
  13. DONhill
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    DONhill Talented

    Feb 4, 2015
    1,166
    What is your rating of Theresa May thus far?

    I think she is doing a great job; and if she plays her cards right, she could exceed Thatcher in all spheres.
     
  14. ElRaja
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    ElRaja Talented

    Jan 12, 2013
    2,776
    to early to tell, think she makes some valid points, and is less concerned about political correctness than her predecessors, but its the implementation of her policies and the legacy of her decisions which dictates how she will be rated.
     
  15. Markhor
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    Markhor Talented

    May 9, 2010
    2,701
    Labour are at the lowest point in the polls for an opposition party since September 1983 - after the post-Falklands Thatcher landslide. May is well ahead of Corbyn in personal approval ratings, and May/Hammond are ahead of perceptions of economic credibility than Corbyn/McDonnell.

    Its hard to have a reasoned conversation about the current situation of the Labour Party. There are pro-Corbyn supporters who'll brand you a Blairite traitor if you dare suggest the party is struggling to convince the electorate they are a government in waiting and will lynch you on social media for such disloyalty. You know this debate has descended into insanity when Owen Jones is now considered too moderate for some of these folks.

    Then there are the centrist Labourites who are utterly uninspiring. For those who argue Corbyn's vision for Labour is outdated, New Labour is also seen as a clapped out doctrine, the embodiment of the managerial, technocratic metropolitan elite that is failing to resonate with the working classes. Kendall, Burnham, Cooper and Smith, for all their claims they were more "electable" than Corbyn, couldn't even convince their own party members.

    Corbyn supporters will argue politics is a funny old business at the moment and they could, given further economic worries and uncertainties induced by Brexit, ride on an anti-establishment wave like Brexit and Trump.

    UKIP fancy their chances up North whilst Liberal Democrats are hoping for a Brexit-inspired bounce by becoming the Party of the 48%. SNP have a firm grip on Scotland where even the Tories are ahead of Labour in the polls !

    Its a long way back.
     
  16. iAd
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    iAd Sultan of Swing

    Nov 9, 2012
    16,721
    I don't think it's Corbyn's ideas they dislike just the him. I believe I read somewhere that people agree with his ideas more when they don't know he's said them. Not sure how true that is but he just doesn't have the same charisma as many who have become UK Prime Ministers. Theresa May is beatable but she will destroy Corbyn in 2020 despite the uncertainty and damage Brexit causes.

    Also I have this feeling Boris Johnson will make a move before 2020. It's probably unlikely but I have a feeling he will. Conservatives can take an internal fight considering how bad Labour is doing.
     
  17. Donal Cozzie
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    Donal Cozzie Tracer Bullet

    Nov 4, 2014
    7,201
    Historic election in Northern Ireland. For the first time in the history of the state there is no longer a Unionist majority government. DUP's backwardness,corruption and dinasour mentality meant that it was SF's most successful ever election. DUP still with the most seats mind at 28,SF 27, but by having fewer than 30 seats they lose their veto over government decisions which previously blocked gay marriage and other issues.

    With the older generation dying out and the DUP's continued stubborness and inability to accept that the old days of treating the "taigs" like garbage aren't ever coming back, can only see more and more votes going towards SF,Alliance and other more liberal parties.

    Unionists stuck in a time warp. The old siege mentality is driving younger voters who are sick of sectarian politics towards parties with more liberal views, yet the more this happens the most besieged and stubborn they become. Only a matter of time before unification now I reckon, maybe a couple decades in future but its inevitable IMO.

    If you'd have said even 10 years ago only 1,000 votes would separate the DUP and Sinn Fein you'd have been laughed at yet here we are. Even staunchly loyalist areas like Ian Paisley's old constituency returned nationalist candidates.
     
  18. ElRaja
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    ElRaja Talented

    Jan 12, 2013
    2,776
    dont know much about NI politics, but wouldnt be surprised to see a post brexit referendum. predicting it would be a fools errand tho, NI have pbly a million registered voters so even small voting blocks would have massive influence on the final result.

    how do the main parties relate to the main british political parties, assuming the unionists are more pro tory.
     
  19. Donal Cozzie
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    Donal Cozzie Tracer Bullet

    Nov 4, 2014
    7,201
    If a referendum carried tomorrow I'd expect 65/35 to remain. The parties south of the border have to show NI how it's better off as part of a one island economy and more importantly show how they'll be included in a 32 county island government. Sadly successive government's here have totally ignored the NI issue as its not in their political benefit to take in 6 counties where the main rival party in the South, Sinn Fein, have a sizeable voting bank whereas our political parties,Fianna Fail, Fine Gael etc, never even bothered setting up in the North.

    This could change though, NI voted heavily against Brexit IIRC, which is laughably ironic since the DUP campaigned for a Brexit even though it carries absolutely no benefits whatsoever for the North. So a reasonable amount of undecided voters or those who fall in the middle could vote for reunification as that would mean returning to the EU.

    SF are a liberal left win party, UUP are also more moderate than their DUP counterparts, who are extremely conservative. Basically it goes

    SF - Left
    DUP - Conservative, I'm assuming right wing.
    UUP/SDLP - The moderate Unionist and Nationalist party respectively.
    Alliance - Centre, will get more and more powerful as average NI voter is sick of sectarian politics.
    TUV - Complete nutters with a 16th century mentality, basically the BNP.
     
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  20. Markhor
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    Markhor Talented

    May 9, 2010
    2,701
    Thoroughly depressing state of affairs.

    Labour a country mile behind in the polls. Hardly any leadership talent that I can see - I read the names Rebecca Long Bailey and Angela Rayner being touted as leaders. No offence to them, I'm sure their hearts are in the right place but LOL.

    Progressives on the back foot everywhere across the West.
     
  21. Don Duckman
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    Don Duckman Tracer Bullet

    Apr 7, 2014
    5,527
    Did anybody care for all those things when they voted for Brexit? It's especially funny to see all the people (even on this forum itself) who went on about independence, project fear, immigrants... now asking for rational arguments. At then end of the day, it's all just about propaganda and what you get people to focus on: emotions, irrational fears, economy, national identity, whatever.

    English media dominates the U.K. so the Scottish referendum failed, so would a north Irish one.

    Truth of it is that an independent Scotland after last referendum wouldn't have been bad. It could have adopted the euro and done very well like Ireland or whatever. Also the truth is that Scotland doesn't have it that bad in the U.K. Northern Ireland is a more complicated due to sectarian issues but as far as the economy is concerned, it's that different getting structural development funds from the EU or from London.
     
  22. Donal Cozzie
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    Donal Cozzie Tracer Bullet

    Nov 4, 2014
    7,201
    UK generally ignores the North though, the taxpayers subsidies the state quite heavily but in terms of actual development it receives little. After Brexit odds are it will receive even less.

    To be honest, most mainlanders in the UK see NI people as Irish anyway, unlike Scotland I don't think they'd care if NI left too much.

    Interesting times ahead.
     
  23. Don Duckman
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    Don Duckman Tracer Bullet

    Apr 7, 2014
    5,527
    I hope they do. But only because Northern Ireland is an eyesore on maps.
     
  24. ComradeVenom
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    ComradeVenom Tracer Bullet

    Jul 24, 2012
    6,407
    Sturgeons gamble will fail. Mood in the country is still against independence. Her best hope is that the ever incompetent May refuses to allow another Indyref so she can save face and continue to rally against westminster.
     
  25. ComradeVenom
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    ComradeVenom Tracer Bullet

    Jul 24, 2012
    6,407
    Need to send out an SOS to David Milliband!
     
  26. ElRaja
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    ElRaja Talented

    Jan 12, 2013
    2,776
    think the reaction would pretty much be the same in the rest of the uk tbh, if there was a referendum the main parties would campaign for NI to stay but if they voted out no one would question the decision.

    the real issue would be internal, no one would want a situation where the polarisation between unionists and republicans would spiral to historic levels.
     
  27. MNA
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    MNA Smooth Operator

    Mar 11, 2015
    3,158
    The last thing we need is another Blairite champagne socialist Islingtonista career politician.
     
  28. Mohsin
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    Mohsin Cornered Tiger

    Feb 21, 2010
    14,417
    Article 50 to be triggered in 9 days time
     
  29. Markhor
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    Markhor Talented

    May 9, 2010
    2,701
    Isn't it amazing that the Conservatives do a massive u-turn in their Budget and not a damn could be given because Labour are so weak they cannot exploit it.

    Anyway, reports now of a shooting outside Parliament.
     
  30. iAd
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    iAd Sultan of Swing

    Nov 9, 2012
    16,721
    Article 50 triggered.
     
  31. Markhor
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    Markhor Talented

    May 9, 2010
    2,701
    Well we're taking the plunge.

    Enjoyed the BBC special Andrew Neil did with PM May and all the party leaders tonight, was a substantive primetime political programme that we don't get enough of.

    There's too much speculation at the moment, most notably about this £50bn EU "divorce" settlement. Where has this figure come from ? How can anyone guarantee the outcomes of negotiations that haven't even begun yet ?
     
  32. DONhill
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    DONhill Talented

    Feb 4, 2015
    1,166
    I voted Leave.

    The sooner we leave the EU the better.

    I say forget having a deal, walk away in the first few months.

    Yes there will be a nose dive in the UK, but from there on it is up!
     
  33. s_h_a_f
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    s_h_a_f Tracer Bullet

    Dec 26, 2011
    7,628
    Both sides are unsure of the outcome of Brexit. Just pointing fingers at eachother.
     
  34. DONhill
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    DONhill Talented

    Feb 4, 2015
    1,166
    No one can be sure!

    There may not be a Euro let alone EU within 5 years anyway!

    Main thing is to be positive!
     
  35. s_h_a_f
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    s_h_a_f Tracer Bullet

    Dec 26, 2011
    7,628
    That is the way to look at it I guess. Positivity is the way forward.

    p.s are you of Pakistani origin? Just curious.
     
  36. DONhill
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    DONhill Talented

    Feb 4, 2015
    1,166
    Yes but born in UK.
     
  37. Donal Cozzie
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    Donal Cozzie Tracer Bullet

    Nov 4, 2014
    7,201
    Where the hell is everyone??

    Huge night this!
     
  38. Prince Pathan
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    Prince Pathan Sultan of Swing

    Aug 31, 2011
    16,868
    Im here, putting needles into a voodoo doll of Theresa May
     
  39. Omar
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    Omar Cricistan Moderator

    Jan 27, 2010
    25,684
  40. Omar
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    Omar Cricistan Moderator

    Jan 27, 2010
    25,684
    As for the exit polls, May was leading was the last I saw.
     

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