British Politics Thread

Discussion in 'The Pavilion' started by ElRaja, May 21, 2014.

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  1. ElRaja
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    ElRaja Talented

    Jan 12, 2013
    2,776
    always good to hear from you man, think if we ever sat down and chatted we'd find some common ground, like an islet in the middle of the river lol.

    im just a disenfranchised liberal (small l).

    to be honest i cant be bothered with the minutiae of policy and politics anymore. as a society i think, we are getting ever more f'ed up, on a psychological level and politicians cant fix that.

    a new kind of consumerism is rampant, its been ever present since the industrial revolution but i think over the past decade or so the advent of social media has democratised the commodification of people to the extent many seek approval or validation in things that will never give them fullfilment.

    i think itll eat away at our collective sanity eventually and ties into your point of the degrading standard of discourse, online platforms make these shows primarily exercises of ego stoking rather than looking to develop any serious political discourse.

    i feel ranty, lol.

    the mogg is one of the few politicians who isn't trying to dupe everyone. no one will ever side with him by accident. he is unapologetically who he is. whether you agree with him or not, i think that is something that should be promoted.

    we have this uber santised political environment where dead eye career politicians consistently try to feed people sound bites and navigate their careers by causing as little offense as they can. for me at least its driven me to the point of apathy tbh.

    also he called his sixth child sixtus, gt to give the guy props for not giving a 5hit, lols.

    i didnt know you worked in health care, what do u do if u dont mind me asking. I have far too little knowledge to comment on how to improve the NHS tho.

    as for young people, perhaps i have a different view because maybe my situation was anomolous but i grew up in a community where me and my closest friends were supposed to turn out as no good F ups, but that didn't happen, partially because we competed with each other and built up our aspirations.

    far too many young people from poor backgrounds have their aspirations killed in school (and the left imo is the biggest culprit), and there is a failure of the entrepreneurial spirit in this country, with far too few of the monied class willing to take punts on young entrepreneurs.

    there will always be a core of voters, including me, who will just never be able to vote for someone as far left wing as corbyn, so he has a far smaller share of votes to compete for, which means unless all the stars align for him, hes unlikely to get a majority.

    jeez, didnt realise i wrote that much lol.
     
  2. Donal Cozzie
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    Donal Cozzie Tracer Bullet

    Nov 4, 2014
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    tbf from an outsider looking in UK politics is pretty insane at the moment.

    As you point out ElRaja one of the biggest issues facing politics is the inability of people to comprehend differing opinions and debate. The Left are the prime cause for this IMO and I say that as someone who identifies as centre left if not just left entirely. The Brexiters are actually even worse at this than the ultra lefties who id normally deride for this but jesus Brexit has shown the utter idiocy and close mindedness of a large amount of people.

    Why may I ask do you blame the left for people from impoverished areas losing hope btw? They aren't the ones who seem to love cutting funding for things left right and centre.

    One of the most disgusting things I notice about UK politics lately is the utter relish buffoons like Kate Hoey, Hannan et al are digging into the Good Friday Agreement and literally placing the peace in NI on the Brexit altar. Its ignorant, dangerous and idiotic and yet the masses on the right seem to be lapping this ill-informed tripe up like dogs. Stunning how these people are playing with fire in a region where tensions still exist over something the people in that region voting overwhelmingly to reject!
     
  3. ElRaja
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    ElRaja Talented

    Jan 12, 2013
    2,776
    few things...

    firstly...... the left is obsessed with equality of results, and competition is seen as a dirty word in academics. i went to pbly the worst secondary in one of the most impoverished parts on London. There seemed to be an obsession with academic inclusivity, even if it was at the expense of the smarter kids.

    it may sound like a bad thing to say but i knew of the people in that crowd who'd end up doing ok, and that was back when we were pretty much kids. and nearly everyone played out like that barring a few surprises..... if it wasn't until some teachers who took the highly controversial are pbly illegal decision of splitting about a handful of us kids, removing us from the main classes and telling us to go learn ourselves cos the classroom was a waste of time did we actually study anything.

    some people are academically inclined, others are athletically, some are good speakers, and as much as the left hates to admit it, some people (whether it be nature or nurture) are just thick and disruptive.

    on the balance ive seen more smart kids being wasted, until some eventually got there 5hit together once they were out of that environment , then i have dumb kids pulling themselves up to the level of the smarter kids.

    secondly...... is the obsession with telling people its ok to have low aspirations. i remember when my career guide came to our school and basically told us we could look forward to working in shops, or as brick layers, mechanics, etc.... whilst there is nothing wrong with these jobs, that shouldn't be the limit for a kids aspirations when they are in their young teens.

    maybe its just my world view but for me constantly striving for whats beyond the horizon of my current possibility keeps me going.

    coincidentally the one kid who was the biggest surprise dropped out of school, got a loan and started up a business which is doing really well now.

    also many years later i bumped into one of the teachers who used to come into school at half six in the morning to teach me and a handful of other kids maths before school was supposed to start, again against school rules, and i told him i was studying physics at ucl he looked so pleased. if it wasn't for those few teachers who bent the rules and went against the grain of forced inclusivity, perhaps i wouldn't be in the position im in today.
     
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  4. Don Duckman
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    Apr 7, 2014
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    This is definitely true. I went to a really elitist government school and socialists have been obsessed with letting in kids from poorer schools irrespective of their credentials. The school can't choose its students anymore and the admission is based on lottery/proximity factor. The result was that my 7th-8th grade were wasted as 19/24 students failed out over the two years and it's the worst I have ever felt in a class since we just didn't come from similar backgrounds. Beyond that, I definitely feel the school isn't up to the same standards anymore. A lot of people just send their kids to private schools where a poor smart kid could never go while, previously, these free public schools allowed for social mixity between smart kids from any background.

    There is always going to be elitism in a society, the choice is on whether it should be based on merit or money. If you destroy merit-based institutions, rich people will still find a way to create their own institutions.

    The only country that does high schools right is France, imo.
     
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  5. ElRaja
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    ElRaja Talented

    Jan 12, 2013
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    dont know abt the french system, but the best chance bright kids from working and lower-middle income have in the uk is grammer schools imo, which im a big advocate of.

    merit-subsidised (dunno if that makes sense) institutions are failing youngsters in the job market. kids are used to progressing academically regardless of performance, then they hit the real world and realise how far and how quickly they are left behind by more talented, harder workers, and this disparity will only grow in the coming generations as automations and ai lead to even greater income inequality, but thats a chat for another time.
     
  6. ComradeVenom
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    Jul 24, 2012
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    I dont know how the english system works. Here after our second year in secondary school we got banded into three different sections for each class - Credit, General and Foundation. The credit kids had the difficult syllabus and after 2 years of studying this could attain a grade 1 or 2 (equivalent to your gsce exams I guess) and would study at higher or advanced higher grades for entry to university in their 5th and 6th years of school.

    This kept the 'top' kids challenged and the less able kids in environments better suited for them.

    How did academic inclusivity impact you at your gcse/A level classes. Surely the system would have filtered out the poorly performing kids by then?

    Also was your teacher not able to teach the syllabus to allow you to pass your exams due to disruptive kids? I dont understand the purpose of your illegal lessons in this case. Was he teaching you at a higher level than the curriculum required?
     
  7. ElRaja
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    ElRaja Talented

    Jan 12, 2013
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    our system was similar, but gcse was seperate to a levels, so up until i was in school even though there was supposedly higher and lower level classes, there was a tonne of smarter kids in the second and third level because they had to keep the top level some what exclusive, each group had the same curriculum.

    i did enough at gcse to get into a levels, but that was again because of special treatment. by a level most of the waste men had been filtered out

    yes, due to serious disruption, we were literally weeks behind the curricula by mid year and the teachers realised it wasnt going to work out.

    you have to remeber if one kid breaks a desk, or punches someone, hides materials, it often wasted the whole hour with the teacher trying to sort things out.
     
  8. Markhor
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    Markhor Talented

    May 9, 2010
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    Corbyn is mishandling the Russian spy affair. He can easily attack May two-fold:

    A) May's sanctions are powder puff. If we really wanted to sanction Russia, we ALREADY have the legislation needed to use to investigate and seize Russian assets in London gained from corruption, as well as to crackdown on these shell companies that allows the identity of their owners to be hidden.

    Not only would you prevent the right attacking you on national security - you can then make the progressive, left-wing case about how London is a haven of not only Russian oligarchs but the corrupt, global financial elites and foreign property speculators that have driven up house prices rendering housing unaffordable for millions of Brits.

    B) Demand May return the £820,000 worth of Russian donations to the Conservative Party since the start of her premiership. This is an open goal, a governing party cannot be receiving money from a country it decries as a hostile enemy.

    You can then expose the Tories for their reluctance to do so because they are the political wing of the London banking institutions that benefit hugely from the presence of these Kremlin-linked businessmen.
     
  9. Mohammed Bilal
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    Mohammed Bilal Tracer Bullet

    Jul 17, 2017
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    Russia can’t be an enemy as it supplies the UK with Gas.
     
  10. MNA
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    MNA Smooth Operator

    Mar 11, 2015
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    Lol you are saying as if Labour is paak saaf from Russian money! They have also benefited from Russian money and some Labour officials have been on their payroll. Talking about living in glass houses and throwing stones etc etc etc

    P.S I am no Tori appologist
     
  11. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
    2,487
    corbyn like lots of other people probably thinks the Russians didnt do it. its almost impossible to imagine that if they wanted to kill someone they would do it in this hamfisted, obvious way. it hasnt been proven yet either has it?

    if it hasnt, he is playing it exactly as a man of principle would do. jumping to action premature conclusions is what led us to iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.
     
  12. ElRaja
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    ElRaja Talented

    Jan 12, 2013
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    its not obvious and hamfisted by accident, its sending out a deliberate message to defectors.
     
  13. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    possibly.

    although you have to imagine that the network of retired spies and defectors in the uk probably have a better source of information than the daily mail. on the other hand, who benefits from striking a larger wedge between the uk and Russia? the usa? brexiteers? I dont know, possibly. could it have been another defector with some personal gripe against the skripals? possibly.

    bit risky developing an international front stage policy based on a "possibly".

    I dont understand how courts are used to work out the truth when it comes to anything at least as serious as shoplifting, but international warfare is evidenced and actioned by tabloid logic, and backed by the masses.
     
  14. ComradeVenom
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    Jul 24, 2012
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    I guess its the same way they took our litvenienko. They sent out a clear message that they will seriously eff ex spies up.

    Russia clearly doesnt respect the UK lol. May isnt going to do anything of substance either.

    Britain is a declining force on the international stage whereas Russia is resurgent and hitting western countries in ways that these same countries have employed in the past. Stoking divisions, electoral manipulation, target killings all backed up by a strong propoganda outlet ( in this case RT) were their modus operandi for a long period of time, so while as a British citizen its alarming to see our weak political class absolutely disrespected by the Kremlin....its also slightly amusing.
     
  15. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    I honestly dont understand the focus and emphasis here. if we are dealing in speculations and balances of probability, surely regime change, political interference, assassinations are something which almost all developed nations have brazenly indulged in. The internet is littered with interviews of ex CIA operatives essentially declaring this kind of thing openly. so how has it become some massive issue all of a sudden?

    does this mean it should be accepted and ignored? of course not. but as mentioned before, we as the public have already been manipulated in similar situations whether its weapons of mass destruction, oppressive regimes, illicit extremist organisations etc etc into condoning non-sequitur actions particularly abroad which have subsequently been shown to be based on out and out lies. you could even include Brexit in that list.

    how is it that so many of us are so ready to drink the cool-aid again? if its proven, thats a totally different ball game, and I would agree with consensus opinion, but I cant see anywhere that it has been: so far what I have read is that the peoples court has judged based on frankly naive and puerile, rank speculation.

    im not a fan of galloway or rt particularly, but looking at the content of this interview, I find it difficult to argue:

     
  16. Mohammed Bilal
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    Mohammed Bilal Tracer Bullet

    Jul 17, 2017
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    I’m very confused on this brexit, I don’t care too much but if we suppose stay with EU would that mean our currency would be euro and decision would not be made at Westminster instead at Brussels?
     
  17. ComradeVenom
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    Jul 24, 2012
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    The current few weeks and the merry go round that is parliament at the moment make me wish the Queen would dissolve parliament and herself call a national election.
     
  18. ElRaja
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    ElRaja Talented

    Jan 12, 2013
    2,776
    what difference would that make, this country is run by a bunch of buffoons, may never wanted brexit so has angled the softest most non brexit brexit ever, corbyn wanted brexit, so has never done anything to challenge the general evolution of events hoping to win an election in a post brexit britain.

    in the end no one will be happy. bunch of disgraceful clowns rule british politics now. cookie cutter ppe spad generation of politicians, slimy charlatans the lot of em.
     
  19. ComradeVenom
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    Jul 24, 2012
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    No difference tbh but there should be some repercussions for the way this lot have made the country a laughing stock on the world stage.
     
  20. ElRaja
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    ElRaja Talented

    Jan 12, 2013
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    this is pretty much the end of this generation of politicians, either they will die out to hopefully be replaced by a new generation of poltiicians, more relevant, real world people, or the apathy of the british people will render the political class unaccountable.

    this country desperately needs a new political party, a small 'l' liberal party, but i dont see where it will come from.
     
  21. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    I think we are witnessing the demise of modern democracy. it was never a good idea, an oligarchy masquerading as a democracy, the choice between two shades of grey, with terms so short that policies were myopic at the expense of etc long term. the differentiation between today and ten years ago is the distribution of information by way of the internet - theres no hiding place, and so they are all becoming exposed.

    thats resulting in extremes. whereas before society, both political and sociological existed in a bowl - most of it settling by gravity around the middle, with some outliers climbing the sides towards extremes, now that bowl is upturned, and the majority are extreme right, or extreme left, with very few genuinely centre opinions.

    what has always driven policy is money and oligarchs, and that wont change. the only difference now is that the plebs will be pitted against each other in hate wars fuelled by disinformation by the likes of Oxford analytics, and their proxies, and mainstream press too, whereas before they were made anodyne and bovine by feeding them enough to neuter them.

    button down the hatchet, this is the rollercoaster carriage at the top of a crest about to start dipping very quickly - and its not a British phenomenon, its global.
     
  22. ElRaja
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    ElRaja Talented

    Jan 12, 2013
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    a tab hyperbolic but i cant say i disagree with you on everything. the fundamental change is that there is no trust, just misinformation and misdirection, and although people have become more aware of it, there is little clarity on what the truth actually is, in an actionable way.

    yes power and money are related, but how does joe average do anything to fight that. it is the fight against the insurmountable which has left the populace apathetic and willfully ignorant, blindly consuming everything just to feel some involvement with the system.

    add to this the on coming revolution in automation and the future holds nothing other than greater inequality where the masses are kept sustained and fed, sedated on tv, junk food and mindless consumerism whilst the power continues to further concentrate at the top.
     
  23. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    precisely. its a rational inevitability, there isnt any choice in the matter. there is nothing the average Joe can do about it, since the only way out is objective morality - and given modern society has slain god - the source of social ethics becomes the individual and survival of the fittest. this isnt really outlandish speculation, there's evidence of that everywhere, particularly exaggerated in the past decade or so, and very obvious in the subject matter of this thread.

    secularism would point at some sort of principle of humanism that will come to the fore, driven by a genetically hard coded propensity for specieal self preservation, but if anything, that is grossly speculative and doesn't really have any evidential precedence.

    the lack of trust you refer to is precisely because of the availability and wide distribution of data - theres no doubt about that, given politicians of the previous several hundred years are well documented to have been significantly worse than the ones today, the only reason they weren't exposed is because people didn't know as much. the guillotine and several plebeian revolts throughout history prove the issue was not a power imbalance, it was information.
     
  24. Wistful Reminisces
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    Wistful Reminisces Banned

    Sep 21, 2012
    20,716
    It's funny watching Pakistanis act British
     
  25. Mohammed Bilal
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    Jul 17, 2017
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    Lol I asked simple question, mujhe kya pata tah?
     

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