Can Azhar & Flower be replaced???

Discussion in 'Cricket Talk' started by isaacking, Jan 15, 2019.

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  1. isaacking
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    isaacking Talented

    Jul 16, 2010
    2,212
    Just want to know if Grant Flower will ever be replaced along with Azhar Mahmood. Reasons to seek the removal is quite clear so the question can they be replaced???
     
  2. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    I have been saying this for years - FIRE this useless Grant, but no, it seem like he's untouchable - God knows why?

    Also, I have started to think the same about Mickey.

    Azhar many not be ideal, but he's a huge upgrade on Waqar and Mohammad Akram.
     
  3. Don Corleone
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    Don Corleone Kaptaan

    Jul 20, 2012
    29,447
    Who are you going to replace them with?

    You can bring in Don Bradman back from his grave and our batsmen will still be soft and dumb.

    The problem with these batsmen and bowlers goes back to the way they've played cricket since they became professional cricketers. Poor pitches, horrible infrastructure, pathetic structure.....

    There is no quick fix to this. Will take at least 10-20 years to get some results from a potential restructure of domestic cricket. They need to start with it though. Bazid Khan as always has some good ideas, but unfortunately his voice is always ignored like his father's.

    Look at how well organized Indian Domestic Cricket is. Their Ranji Cup is light years ahead of whatever they have in Pakistan. QAE Trophy or Brighto Lighto Pants Cup.
     
  4. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    Having better domestic structure, schedule QAE Trophy and other major tournaments not in Oct/Nov, Improving pitches, induct qualified coaches, provide players balance meal plan, proper fitness facilities & routine and better pay is all fancy talking, which will take years to implement.

    What short-term resolution do you propose (wherein short-term means 2/3 years)?
     
  5. Don Corleone
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    Don Corleone Kaptaan

    Jul 20, 2012
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    There is no short-term resolution and fix to this.

    What people don't realize is that coaches help players with their technique and creating game plans for each player. It's up to the player to implement that game plan on game day and execute it.

    Our players are soft so they're unable to execute any game plan. No amount of batting or bowling coaches can help fix this. And when you've reached the senior team it's already too late to teach you the fundamentals of batting or bowling. You can obviously always fine-tune your skills and work on your weaknesses and become a better overall player, but you can never re-learn fundamentals or get out of the bad habits you've grown accustomed to since you started playing cricket. That's where the domestic cricket structure down to U16 level comes in.

    Poor coaching, infrastructure, lack of a proper system and structure.

    The sooner people realize there's no quick fix to Pakistan's problems the better it will be for Pakistan Cricket.

    Trying to find quick-fixes and pardon my language, half-assing everything looking for a solution is the reason we're in this predicament.

    Without a proper system the only thing you'll find is chaos and disorganization which exemplifies Pakistan Cricket the last couple of decades.
     
  6. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    why would yo want to replace Azhar? the bowling this tour was crap, but 1) look what he had to work with (Inzi/Mickeys fault) and 2) he has done impressive work with the bowlers over his tenure.

    On the pother hand look at flower - what exactly has he done? nothing. throughout his whole four (?) year tenure. he has no qualifications that I am aware of (I may be wrong), but certainly no real experience prior to this job.

    Mickey too - fired from two (?) jobs previously, atrocious squad selection and team selections, playing spinners when he shouldn't, playing pacers when he shouldnt, backing the wrong players, no strategic. thinking worth anything whatsoever, no coaching skills other than organisation and showing no real improvement other than fitness and fielding, which id give him credit for.

    if anything I would have Rashid Latif as selector, or at least consider him despite him being a bit of a nutter, inzi as batting coach possibly, although I suspect his ego wont allow it, and I would consider promoting azhar to head coach. he has shown some skills, is level 3 I believe and close to being level 4 coach, or perhaps he is already, and is the most exposed to modern day play than any of the coaching staff by a massive margin.

    the whole domestic organisation is a scape goat and bs excuse for crap coaching and organisation.
     
  7. Mohan
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    Mohan Formerly 'Captain Clutch'

    Nov 4, 2014
    3,990
    You guys atleast have credible names. Look at our coaching staff:

    Head Coach: Smashtri
    Batting Coach: Sanjay Bangar (LOL)
    Bowling Coach: Bharat Arun (LMFAO)

    Our only good appointment in this area is Rahul Dravid as the under 19 coach.

    And to people blaming the system - the exact same system/structure gave you Zaheer Abbas, Javed Miandad, Saeed Anwar, Younis Khan, Inzamam and Mohammed Yousuf.
     
  8. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    So if we have poor coaches, pathetic infrastructure and lack of a facilities and all, then why we produced players like Hanif, Mushtaq, Sadiq, Majid, Zaheer, Imran, Javed, Qadir, Wasim, Waqar, Saeed, Younis, Inzamam Mohammed Yousuf and Shoaib etc as @Mohan said?
     
  9. Don Corleone
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    Don Corleone Kaptaan

    Jul 20, 2012
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    Because Cricket have evolved the last couple of decades and become more professionalized. You've got teams invest more in technology, different method of coaching, like in pretty much every sport concepts and systems have had to evolve to today's standards. That's why every country have put a bigger effort on improving their domestic infrastructure.

    You're comparing players that came through in the 80s and 90s to almost 2020.

    That's the number one problem right there. Fans having buried their heads in the sand and trying to find a quick fix to the old glory days that were almost a couple of decades ago.

    We're still trying to develop players through our old ass extinct system and methods.

    How about I ask you now: What is your solution to this? What do you think the problem is?

    You're asking me all these questions and trying to counter my arguments with old history. How about you come up with some yourself?

    I've seen myself how countries have changed their structure, coaching method and grassroot systems in other sports such as football as it's continually evolving like with other sports, yet we have a bunch of dudes here that believe we're going to create World Class cricketers with all this mess and same thought of mind as 20 years ago.
     
  10. isaacking
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    isaacking Talented

    Jul 16, 2010
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    There might not b any quick fix but ask any sound management and they will tell u to "have a 2 prolong plan"

    Long term goal of rending short term solution unnecessary and short term goal to bring in a change to shake the thing up.

    Change of coach is short term goal, long term is to improve fc system.

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  11. Mohammed Bilal
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    Mohammed Bilal Tracer Bullet

    Jul 17, 2017
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    For the time being em I’d reckon get the selections correct and long term goal should be to make Pak structure one of the best in the world where it progresses to where our cricketers can play FC matches in away conditions but for time being making sure the selections are good and the coaching is doing it’s bit, I’d replace flower for now, Mickey has produced Steyn, AB and Amla, I’d like to call it damage control but atm PCB is doing none so why bother even writing this post?
     
  12. Passionate Pakistani
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    Passionate Pakistani The Don

    Jun 10, 2011
    68,094
    I know Azhar has some coaching certificates, Is even Grant eligible for Intl coaching ? I think you need to do certain courses before being eligible to coach an intl team

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  13. Wistful Reminisces
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    Wistful Reminisces Banned

    Sep 21, 2012
    20,716
    We disagree on this to a large extent, but I'll bite on this.

    In the 80's, 90's, sports were professional. However, there were no extensive video records, no extensive analysis of batsman. Tactics were almost nonexistent. In 96, Lanka's blast it approach at the start won them a World Cup.

    Times have changed now. If players in the 90's struggled against something, it would not be common knowledge for all bowlers to exploit. Now, every weakness is highlighted, and plans are made for specific players.

    Average Bowling Speeds have increased. Batting averages have increased everywhere except in Pakistan.

    In the 80's and 90's, no one had any real system in place to produce players, other than county and Australia. Other countries had their big players go to England. Now no Indian has to go to England to refine their technique in county.

    Dibbly dobbler medium pacers are thrashed routinely. Batsman know what bowling plans are. Bowlers know what weaknesses are.

    In 90's, if Azhar Ali was bounced out by Oliver, next tour, it wasn't necessary that someone would try it again. Now, Azhar will be destroyed by every express bowler going. Most teams have bowlers that bowl above 140k.

    We produced flair players and talent THEN. We produce it now too. But techniques have improved in that time, and so has the plans of players. If Wasim/Waqar were playing today, they wouldn't keep bowling yorkers, because they'd be thrashed as batsman now have shots around yorkers too. Things change. Our system hasn't
     
  14. Energy
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    Energy Cornered Tiger

    Apr 22, 2012
    10,364
    Super post by @Wistful Reminisces and highlights the need for change to cope with the changing world. Its not just cricket, its happening everywhere. Relying on 'old-school talent phenomenon' has little value these days.

    Take Ajantha Mendis for example. Took the world by storm when came in and everyone thought he will beat Murali's record also. Nobody gives a shit about him now.

    On the other hand, look at Ravindra Jadeja. Absolute tool of a bowler. But just by varying pace and bowling stump to stump he is a Top 10 bowler in the world. Without an inch of a talent. Just hard work.
     
  15. isaacking
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    isaacking Talented

    Jul 16, 2010
    2,212
    Issue with everyone of us is we really don't understand the role a batting coach or bowling coach performs.

    We think it is to iron out the technical flaws and help in making practice session. I know that is wrong and shouldn't be their complete JD.

    Their role must be to read pitches and suggests the best personnel available for the give type of surface.

    It must also be made responsible for building a batting/bowling unit.

    On this front i find both Azhar and Flower flawed.



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  16. Passionate Pakistani
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    Passionate Pakistani The Don

    Jun 10, 2011
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    Younis is another example
    Below average technique but sheer dedication and hard work made him the highest runs scorer for Pak.

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  17. Patriot
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    Patriot Kaptaan

    Oct 8, 2014
    25,203
    coaches are for helping u train, they arent for making a player

    Pakistan domestic set up and coaching is so bad which shows its fruit

    if you look at indias domestic set up, its producing very good players. even before IPL happened, india was producing very good players. Reason is solely related to their domestic set up.

    Fix that in Pakistan and you will see the difference in the upcoming players caliber
     
  18. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    No you didnt get it man, let me explain.

    First, I second you on the long term resolution(s), in fact we have discussed all these in great detail here on CS and I am certain every sane poster will agree with you. Indeed we need those changes, but for an inept and incompetent organization like PCB, it will take more than 30 years to implement what you proposed. Therefore, I was trying to see if there is a short-term solution. For instance,

    1) Selection on merit for different formats and identify different players for different formats. Fawad, Hasir, Usman, Saad and Umar all have higher first-class career stats, yet we are persisting with Azhar and Asad. Also, when will we play a regular spinner who can spin the ball in UAE along with Yasir. When will Zafar Gohar get a chance in Test, who is one of the best spinner in Pakistan? Yasir put pressure from one end, but we leak easy runs from the other end, imagine how teams will struggle if Yasir has a strong partner.

    2) Why our key players are catching too many injuries ahead of vital series or tournaments? For instance Harris missed Test series, Abbas only played last Test and same goes for Shadab. Is this something wrong with the training routine of these guys or there is something else?

    3)Work load management of our players, is anybody even understand this concept? Hassan, Amir, Shadab, Shaheen even Faheem - all these guys are playing all 3 formats, where is the rotation policy? And icing on the cake, now have Abbas part of limited squad too - Allah raham kara.

    Above said points wouldn't make us world beaters, but it could help us to become a bit more comparative. Because if you compare performance of Pakistan and other top team, then you will notice that there is a gulf of difference, and I believe above points could help to reduce it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
  19. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    As I said in post # 18, PCB need to adopt new changes and implement what we all have proposed in this thread (which btw I have seen here on CS before too), but we shouldn't make ourselves fool that and an organization like PCB will implement even half of what we have disused in next 15 years.

    I said this in another thread, and will reiterate again.

    If any profession you need to invest with time, you need to enhance your skillset, need to improve your work ethics, continuously add more tool in your armory with time. Because you need all this to survive.

    Unfortunately I DON'T see this attitude and approach at all in our cricketers. The only guy who seems to have invested in him is Shan, so trillion dollar question is why others dont do it? Cricket is their bread and butter, why not improve yourself and overcome on your shortcomings?

    I think lack of education is a key factor, because none of our illiterate players have enough sense in their head. Icing on the cake, no will of hard work and spend extra time in nets.
     
  20. s_h_a_f
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    s_h_a_f Tracer Bullet

    Dec 26, 2011
    7,951
    Bring in whoever you like. Won’t make an ounce of a difference.

    Pakistan cricket system has fallen behind. We will see flashes of brilliance. But no consistency.
     
  21. Sultan Yusuf
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    Sultan Yusuf Talented

    Sep 1, 2010
    1,089
    We can wax lyrical about FC cricket, grassroots, blah, blah, blah. Yes it needs fixing, but whatever the results of that, it will be known in 10-15 years time. So yes 10/10 for recognising we need a change in the fc structure, but this is not earth shattering news.

    What we need is something definitely in the short term too. And personally, especially on the bowling front, we need an overseas coach. Our pak coaches have this obsession about right lines, “pace not everything”, “dry up the runs”, “Yorkers are haram” etc etc zzzzzz.

    Our domestic coaches are more concerned with preventing injury (e.g Aqib) than producing quality, threatening bowlers.

    The whole world is embracing our inventions (pace and reverse swing) and our geniuses think we are far above that.

    Someone also needs to inject some of our bowlers with some testosterone, they just look dead, lethargic, no intent, no aggression. Boring boring boring
     
  22. Mohammed Bilal
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    Mohammed Bilal Tracer Bullet

    Jul 17, 2017
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    Testosterone is for reproduction, you don’t need that for energy, for energy I think you can have glucose and vitamins or if you are Shoaib Akhtar than steroids are the way forward.

    I agree, we can do damage limitation for 15 years until the system starts giving us players but we’ll never be more than a top 5 side in Tests and ODIs in that period, just damage limitation means win the odd away Test here and there and win HOME SERIES, destroy Bangladesh and Sri Lanka and be competitive, nothing out of the extraordinary we are asking, make 3-0into 2-1, make 5-0 into 3-2 etc.
     
  23. isaacking
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    isaacking Talented

    Jul 16, 2010
    2,212
    Changing entire first class system will need atleast 3/4 yrs to start showing result. We must plan and implement it from now onwards.


    But I also believe that a good batting/bowling coach with say 15 top potential batsmen/bowlers working on their techniques, building an unit and mentally grooming them will start procuding result by the time next test is to be played.

    Imran did the same thing but as a captain. Now we want to find some like him to coach the future players. Even some like Rahul who as shaped the future indian batsmen in mere 2 years of hard work.

    May someone like ex fielding coach who worked with the national side and procudes result in six or so.

    So please don't tell me its not plausible or its impossible.



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  24. BuccalSingh
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    BuccalSingh Youngsta Beauty

    Mar 21, 2016
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    india is no 1 team and just beat aus in aus under your coach Shashtri
    probably the best batting unit under the coach Bangar
    2nd or 3rd best fast bowling attack under Arun.

    I rather have players who are performing great working with low profile coach rather than have a big name as a coach who is producing no results.
     
  25. Mohan
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    Mohan Formerly 'Captain Clutch'

    Nov 4, 2014
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    The point is that Kohli cannot tolerate a second superstar in the team. There is a reason why he got rid of a thorough professional like Anil Kumble. He only wants to be surrounded with yes men and stooges who will happily carry Anushka's shopping bags. Shastribot and co are exactly the kind of people he wants.
     

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