For how long biased selection of BABAR will continue in Test...

Discussion in 'Cricket Talk' started by Del, Sep 30, 2017.

  1. Mohammed Bilal
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    Mohammed Bilal Cricistani

    Jul 17, 2017
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    Yeh and I know Babar won't deliver in the next match as well but as I say he is better than Fawad alam,I promise I will change my mind if he gets big runs in the Quaid e azam trophy because Inzi picks recent performances.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
  2. Del
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    Del Cricistani

    Dec 21, 2016
    2,429
    I'm not even talkin about next game, I'm still willing to give Bobby 6/7 Test. But thing is, if still he wouldn't make big hundreds, double hundreds, useful contribution (I'll be the first one who'll acknowledge it), put price on his wicket, then surly somebody from domestic should be given a chance, who has better FC avg. Cuz at the end of the day, your game reflects in those numbers.

    BTW: I support his too, and know what he possess, not many in Pakistan cricket do. But having potential and delivering when your team need the most, are two different things.
     
  3. Shaz130
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    Shaz130 Cricistani

    Dec 29, 2016
    690
    We won't create great batsmen if we drop a promising batsmen like him. What ever happens with our domestic cricketers should not be of our concern. The problem with domestic cricket is a Pakistani problem as a whole. It won't get fixed over night. Babar in my eyes will be a worthy investment. A far more worthy one than Shafiq.
     
  4. Mohammed Bilal
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    Mohammed Bilal Cricistani

    Jul 17, 2017
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    Shafiq is the next Steve waugh
     
  5. Shaz130
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    Shaz130 Cricistani

    Dec 29, 2016
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    Lacks that Australian kangaroo kick in his batting.
     
  6. Prince Pathan
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    Prince Pathan Cricistani

    Aug 31, 2011
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    Has no place in the test squad
     
  7. Don Duckman
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    Don Duckman Cricistani

    Apr 7, 2014
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    One point your comparison doesn’t take into account is that they’re all 28-32 except Babar and that Babar is better than all of them in Odis and T20s.

    He will come good eventually, he just isn’t the most confident guy around. Once he starts scoring he won’t stop.
     
  8. godzilla
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    godzilla Cricistani

    May 12, 2016
    280
    true - it doesnt take into account age. so then it becomes a guessing game of is it worth playing someone young with potential but no evidence, or someone older who has evidence he can play. thats where I suppose it becomes an art, and I havent prepared a list of case studies to demonstrate it, but I would guess that the guys who have proven themselves in general significantly outperform the guys who havent, irrespective of age.

    babar is better than most of them and would be amongst the first on the list for LOI, but this is about tests. they are two different format. success in one format does not mean success in another, we've seen that a billion times, and yk is a very obvious example.

    maybe you are right and he will come good at some point. maybe if they play my masi, she will come good at some point. but theres no evidence so far to suggest that he will. his first class returns, which are the long form of the game on the domestic circuit, are crap.

    maybe hes not ready, and will come good, in which case lets wait till then, what sense does it make in playing an undercooked player at the international level? the international level is not a nursery ground for experimentation, its where the best side plays.
     
  9. Desi_Joker
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    Desi_Joker Cricistani

    Jun 18, 2012
    7,127
    Babar is one of those players that needs to be given a long rope. He has tremendous talent and a very high ceiling. We need to persist with him. Having said that, Babar also needs to deliver a solid performance sooner rather than later. With each failure, calls for his head to roll will get louder. He simply needs to give himself more time at the crease and the runs will come.

    I don't want him to end up in the wilderness of FC cricket like Fawad Alam has. Babar is probably the most complete batsman I have seen come out of Pakistan in a long time.
     
  10. Bilal123
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    Bilal123 Cricistani

    Dec 11, 2010
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    I have a feeling Sami and Babar will score 100s this game
     
  11. godzilla
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    godzilla Cricistani

    May 12, 2016
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    can you explain to me how given the highlighted part of your comments he has only been able to average a very poor 35 over 63 first class innings?
     
  12. godzilla
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    godzilla Cricistani

    May 12, 2016
    280
    well on day three, before the excuses of a fifth day crumbling square turner, of a flatter than flat road/run fest pitch, they scored 39 and 8.

    8 runs on a pitch that the 7th ranked team in the world just smashed almost 500 runs on.
     
  13. Bilal123
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    Bilal123 Cricistani

    Dec 11, 2010
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    True. He just doesn't seem to have a plan on how to approach a test match innings. Plays horrible shots time and again.
     
  14. Bilal123
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    Bilal123 Cricistani

    Dec 11, 2010
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    I know horrible isn't it. Both have been flops. Babar especially is an absolute joke of a test batsman.

    Can't believe I'm saying this but I'd rather have Shehzad in this line up than ether of these two. At least he knows how to bat selfishly long.
     
  15. Bilal123
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    Bilal123 Cricistani

    Dec 11, 2010
    5,637
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/227758.html

    BTW look at Imads stats in FC. He's got a better average over a significant 5K runs than Shafiq and he's also a decent bowler.
    Why on earth aren't they bringing this guy in to play in UAE test?
    I know he's not a massive spinner of the ball but he's still got some variety and can keep it tight for Yasir from other end. Also a very handy batsman at no.7?
     
  16. godzilla
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    godzilla Cricistani

    May 12, 2016
    280
    lets be fair to him, he is a superb prospect for limited over crickets, has demonstrated it in domestic and has carried that form onto international limited overs.

    but success in one format does NOT mean success in another. proof? :

    Younis khan: tests 10,000 runs at 52. Odis 7,000 runs at 31.
     
  17. godzilla
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    godzilla Cricistani

    May 12, 2016
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    I think thats a very strong argument.
     
  18. Bilal123
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    Bilal123 Cricistani

    Dec 11, 2010
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    I don't mind him being a wonderful player in limited overs only. My biggest worry would be if he starts to regress in that format
     
  19. Energy
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    Energy Well-Known Member

    Apr 22, 2012
    9,082
    I'd rather drop Shafiq.
     
  20. Shaz130
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    Shaz130 Cricistani

    Dec 29, 2016
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    That comparison makes no sense. First off you are fliping two sides. You are comparing a proper Test batsmen with a decent ODI batsmen.

    Babar is a far more talented batsmen than Younis Khan. He is more compact. Meaning he could play good lofted shots also grounded shots. He has scored 100s consistently in the ODI format which means his temperment is not the issue. All it is, is understanding on how to build an innings in Tests. Which can only be learned over time. Besides him who else do we have as dynamic as him who has more potiential of scoring runs on consistent bases without boring the crowd?

    You guys suggest Fawad Alam but shouldn't Asad Shafiq give up his place? A dude who has been given seven years of investment. Can't play Test above his number 6 position.
     
  21. godzilla
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    godzilla Cricistani

    May 12, 2016
    280
    you're right the comparison of a player who is good at the longer format but not good at the shorter format, against a player who is good in the shorter format and has so far shown that he is poor at the longer format.

    the comparison was to show though that the two formats are not automatically correlated - thats proven by the comparison. now we can debate whether thats because of talent or technique, but those are subjective assessments, and to contextualise that with your own example of asad, he has almost universally been declared technically excellent, and yet he cannot deliver. so my contention is that our (collective) judgements have historically proven to be poor indicators of success, the long terms statistics, however have shown in general to be far better indicators of success.

    im not going to debate whether babar is more talented batsman than younis, I happen to think that is a ridiculous statement, but concede its a matter of opinion and you are entitled to yours. I would claim too that centuries mean nothing, consistency means everything, ahmed is a perfect example of that in the shorter format, I dont think its an effective tool to measure quality beyond a particular format.

    ultimately, and we can disagree with the above, but theres is a glaring problem with your point of view which is if he does have this much skill, then why has he singularly failed so spectacular in the long format both domestically and internationally? if it is, as you say, simply a mental adjustment, surely that is a) a worry that something that simple hasnt sunk in, particularly for a batsman who as you claim has temperament and b) a case for allowing him to learn that BEFORE being selected rather than hoping he develops in crucial international matches.

    I dont have an axe to grind about alam, or babar, all I am simply saying is that a CORRECT use of statistics is likely to lead to the best selections, and on the long term stats we have at our disposal, ALL the evidence suggests babar is either not cut out or not ready for the long format, and that alam is. if babar improves, I would use the exactly the same methodology to argue for his inclusion, if someone better than alam develops for alam falls away, I would use the same methodology to argue against his inclusion, its a purely objective evidence based strategy, but crucially requires the proper usage of statistics which means inclusion of large data sets.

    with regards to asad, I completely agree with you, the three glaring batsmen that need to be out in my view are Shan, babar and asad, and I would have alam, Salahuddin, and possibly even fakhar in, in their place, but am happy to reappraise based on the records of other better players that I havent yet seen.
     
  22. Prince Pathan
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    Prince Pathan Cricistani

    Aug 31, 2011
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    Why? Even now he is making a fight of this. Mentally weak Babar needs to go from Tests
     
  23. Mohammed Bilal
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    Mohammed Bilal Cricistani

    Jul 17, 2017
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    Come again.
     
  24. Del
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    Del Cricistani

    Dec 21, 2016
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    @godzilla @Shaz130


    There is a reason why cricket is called a "Team game", wherein, every player is given a particular role based on potential he possesses. Test cricket is all about partnerships. Your openers supposed to give you good start, convert their starts into big innings, shield no.3 and 4 and see off the new ball. Then no.3 and no.4 job is to further consolidate on the given start and grind the opposition. Similarly no.5 and no.6 job is to push the total as far as they can batting along with the tail without exposing them much. It's you're no.5 and 6 who convert 250/300 into 350/425 or above.

    What happened with Pakistan is almost the opposite of what I illustrated above if 3 innings out of 4 innings. Our openers didn't last too long, middle and lower middle order didn't delivered at all and the less said about our tail, the better. If it wasn't for Harry, we would be facing more humiliation in few innings.

    All the above factors are evident that we've serious issues in form of Shan, Asad and Babar.

    Shan hasnt done anything in this series to get the next one, should be axed imminently. Also, Sami should be given a warning with one last series to keep his place in the squad.

    Like it or not, Shafiq is better off playing at lower down the order. 6 might be too low, so maybe he can try to come at 5, but not on 4 for sure. He doesn't has it in him to build and play long innings. Having him on no.5/6 will rest assure that he'll at least perform better than no.4. This way, at least we can eliminate one root cause of batting failure out of three.

    Azhar is okay to be at no.3 but we need to find out who should bat at no.4 and build long innings. Maybe Harris, I don't know.

    Now coming on Bobby. Babar was inducted in the limited over side, was thrown at the deep end and it was sink or swim for him. He accepted the challenge and didn't sink. Here we should keep something in mind, that it didn't take him too long to adjust at no.3 in LO side ( this no.3 had been our weakest link, which was hijacked by Heckfeez ). However, this is not the case in longer format, except few good innings. He has played 11 Test, which means 22 innings, but still his avg is hovering around 23 and in those 22 innings, he only crossed 50+ only 4 times.

    Nobody here is denying his potential with the bat. We all know he's one of the most complete batsman we've seen after a long, long time - no question about it. But somebody has to decide for long leeway has to be given to him, because he's not delivering with bat at all and currently we're playing Test cricket with 10 players.
     
  25. Mohammed Bilal
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    Mohammed Bilal Cricistani

    Jul 17, 2017
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    He's a good fielder.
     
  26. Del
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    Del Cricistani

    Dec 21, 2016
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    Good one.
     
  27. Mohammed Bilal
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    Mohammed Bilal Cricistani

    Jul 17, 2017
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    What do you mean?
     
  28. godzilla
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    godzilla Cricistani

    May 12, 2016
    280
    ive put I my input already, so will just be repeating myself again! but I agree to a large extent. I think if a player is professional enough to have made it to international cricket, there ought not to be too much of an issue of what precise number he plays, theres plenty of evidence to suggest good players can adapt, as long as they are given a role - whatever that role is - which is why I care less for finding a specialist in each position, but care more for selecting our best players and giving them a run.

    mickey was pathetic in that interview about losing sleep. he talked of a problem in the Pakistani set up of players not being given a long enough run to justify playing Shan. thats just stupid. you give a long run to your best players, not someone who is a nice guy, speaks English well and is the son of a board member, but cant score more than 30 runs, and then give hime a long run because you dont want to chop and change.

    that philosophy only works if you first pick the best players, and thats what the crux of the problem is which is entirely inzi's fault.

    to quote my comment in another thread, this is the kind of thing I would be looking at:

    id probably want to redo an analysis of the country's leading domestic batters, but in the absence of that, my inclination would be (fc average in brackets):

    1. azhar ali (42)
    2. fakhar (42)
    3. haris (52)
    4. alam (56)
    5. Salahuddin (47)
    6. specialised bat, or imad (41)
    7. sarfraz (42)
    8. yasir
    9. not wahab
    10. not wahab
    11. abbas

    as opposed to the existing bullshit line up:

    1. shan (34)
    2. aslam (36)
    3. azhar (42)
    4. shafiq (39)
    5. babar (36)
    6. haris (52)
    7. sarfraz (42)
    irrelevant

    is there any surprise at all at what we are seeing? or that given those first class averages that Haris has been the stand out performer despite the immense experience and investment in azhar and technique shafiq?

    why do they not play their best batsmen? this has been a policy for decades now with the results there for everyone to see. inzi is very marginally better than his predecessors, but still crap, like a 3/10 instead of 1/10.
     
  29. MNA
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    MNA Cricistani

    Mar 11, 2015
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    Unfortunately merit and domestic averages has never been a criteria for selection in Pakistan. You got to be the blessed one with divine interventions working in your favor a la Shan Masood.
     
  30. Shaz130
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    Shaz130 Cricistani

    Dec 29, 2016
    690
    I don't think one should just go on by numbers they should also go on potiential. While I can understand the frustration with people at the same time I also understand. That what ever game Babar is showing is not his very best. I would not write him off so easily just because his numbers in this particular format are not up to par. Cause cricket is played on the field not on the scoresheet.
     
  31. godzilla
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    godzilla Cricistani

    May 12, 2016
    280
    there are numbers and numbers. if used properly using long data sets, its very difficult to logically deny heavily weighting stats. if used improperly, they are useless and can be used to justify anything.

    although its true that stats are not everything, its a massive cop out to quote meaningless cliches like 'cricket is played on the field not on the scoresheet'. well games are won on the scoresheet not on potential. in addition, even if we agree that potential is more important than record, how do we identify that potential?

    history proves that that statistics do have a good record of making that prediction of potential.

    on the other hand, history also shows us that its precisely this totally subjective sense of 'picking on potential' that's led to us languishing at the bottom of all the tables.

    clearly picking teams "on potential" isnt working, is it?
     
  32. Mohammed Bilal
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    Mohammed Bilal Cricistani

    Jul 17, 2017
    490
    I use Shan for my Chicken Biryani

    Not so useless after all.
     
  33. Shaz130
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    Shaz130 Cricistani

    Dec 29, 2016
    690
    @bold: Right so people don't watch games they watch scoresheets.

    You could bring up any amount of numbers in the end of the day they don't tell you everything. A player's own ability is truly shown on the field not on scoresheets. You can't use numbers to determine if a player will pass or fail. Because a players own ability comes out of his own veins not on a paper sheet.

    Anywho give Babar Azam couple of more series than we will talk.
     
  34. Shaz130
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    Shaz130 Cricistani

    Dec 29, 2016
    690
    He is given a leeway because management feels he has the potiential to play longer innings. Which he clearly does if you watch his ODI game. Him failing right now is off color. He is getting confused on how to construct an innings in a format like Tests. Someone needs to tell him to play his natural game and not to think about what format he is playing. He should get a license to free his arms when he sees a ball to hit.

    Like look at Sarfraz he is clearly a ODI batsmen and plays like one. To him it does not matter what format he plays. He plays the way he wants to play and thats how Babar should play.
     
  35. Del
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    Del Cricistani

    Dec 21, 2016
    2,429
    I think we're keep discussing same thing over and over again - its like moving in a circle.

    I know you're obsessed with the guy, because he has 'potential' - fair. But his bat needs to start producing runs, otherwise his 'potential' is of no use.

    I already said, that I'm willing to give him more Test, only because of his consistent performances and achievements in limited over cricket. Having said that, it doesn't mean that keep on giving him chances for next 2 years. In such case, giving him enough chances is actually ruining Pakistan's team. And of course, team is bigger than an individual.
     
  36. Shaz130
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    Shaz130 Cricistani

    Dec 29, 2016
    690
    I am not obessed with him. I am just not hell bent on dropping him after few games.


    We really don't play enough Tests to really determin how many years is too many games. I do agree with you that he should not be persisted with till he looks like a tried and tested failure. I would not like it either. All I am saying is that he should get a proper run before he is dropped from the game. Because in my eyes he deserves that much leeway for his performances in ODI.
     
  37. Shaz130
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    Shaz130 Cricistani

    Dec 29, 2016
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    Century on his first ODI game. Babar is here to stay. Soon he will do the same in Tests.
     

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