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Gay Pakistan : Where sex is available and relationships are difficult

Discussion in 'The Pavilion' started by Passionate Pakistani, Sep 22, 2013.

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  1. Passionate Pakistani
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    Passionate Pakistani Fantasy Draft Wins: 1

    Jun 10, 2011
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    By Mobeen Azhar BBC World Service, Karachi
    uploadfromtaptalk1379805346125.jpg
    Pakistan is not the kind of place that most people would associate with gay liberation. But some say the country is a great place to be gay - even describing the port city of Karachi as "a gay man's paradise".

    Underground parties, group sex at shrines and "marriages of convenience" to members of the opposite sex are just some of the surprises that gay Pakistan has to offer. Under its veneer of strict social conformity, the country is bustling with same-sex activity.

    Danyaal, as he's asked to be known, is a 50-something businessman who lives in an affluent part of Karachi, and uses his smartphone to organise Karachi's gay party scene.

    "One of the first things I did online, maybe 12 years ago, was type in G - A - Y and hit search. Back then I found a group and made contact with 12 people in this city," he says.

    "These days there are smartphone apps that use GPS to tell you how close you are to another gay person with an online profile. There are thousands of gay men online in Pakistan at any one time."

    The party scene is big - so big, he jokes, that he rarely gets time to himself.

    "If you want sex too, it's a gay man's paradise. If you want a relationship, that may be more difficult."

    These invitation-only parties are a rare opportunity for gay men to be open about their sexuality.

    Pakistani society is fiercely patriarchal. Pakistanis are expected to marry a member of the opposite sex, and the vast majority do.

    The result is a culture of dishonesty and double lives, says researcher Qasim Iqbal.

    "Gay men will make every effort to stop any investment in a same-sex relationship because they know that one day they will have to get married to a woman," he says.

    "After getting married they will treat their wives well but they will continue to have sex with other men."

    Sex between men occurs in some very public places - including, surprisingly, Karachi's busiest shrine.

    Families go to the Abdullah Shah-Ghazi shrine to honour the holy man buried there and to ask for God's blessings, but it is also Karachi's biggest cruising ground.
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    Every Thursday evening, as the sun sets, men from across the city gather there. A tightly packed circle is formed and those in the centre of the circle are groped by those on the periphery.

    To outsiders it looks like a writhing mass of men huddling around one another. Some even describe it as a "mysterious religious ceremony". For participants, it's anonymous group sex.

    This kind of behaviour is, of course, not condoned by Pakistan's religious authorities.

    Most Pakistanis view homosexuality as sinful. The vast majority of clerics interpret the Qoranic story of Lot as a clear indication that God condemns homosexual men. Some scholars go even further and recommend Sharia-based punishment for "men who have sex with men".

    The shrine is far from the only place in Karachi where gay sex is freely available.

    It is, for example, easy to buy from a malchi walah - a masseur who offers massage and "extras" for the equivalent of £5, or $7.80.

    "We get important people - police, army officers and ministers too," says one masseur, Ahmed.

    He claims to have slept with more than 3,000 men during his working life - despite having two wives and eight children.

    One of his wives, Sumera, wears a burka and the niqab, but she has no objection to her husband's chosen profession and wishes more people would keep an open mind.

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    "I know he has sex. No problem. If he doesn't work how will the kids eat? I get angry when people call them names. People are stuck in their ways."

    Sumera's position may appear surprising, but in fact it's not hard to understand, says Qasim Iqbal.

    "In Pakistan men are discouraged from having girlfriends and so often, their first sexual experiences will be with male friends or cousins. This is often seen as a part of growing up and it can be overlooked by families - it's the idea that 'boys will be boys'," he says.

    "Sex between men will be overlooked as long as no-one feels that tradition or religion are being challenged. At the end of it all, everyone gets married to a member of the opposite sex and nothing is spoken about."

    Technically, homosexual acts are illegal in Pakistan. The British introduced laws criminalising what is described as sex "against the order of nature" in the colonial era. Sharia-based laws dating from the 1980s also lay down punishments for same-sex sexual activity.

    In practice, though, these laws are rarely enforced, and the issue tends to be dealt with inside the family.

    "There was an instance where two boys were caught having sex in a field," says Iqbal.

    "The family tried to bribe the police with money because they didn't want the story going public. When the police wouldn't back down the family asked for one detail to be changed - they wanted their son to be presented as the active sexual partner. For them, their son being passive would be even more shameful."

    In almost all cases charges will be dropped, Iqbal says, but the boys will be forced to get married by their families.

    Just occasionally, though, Pakistani parents do reconcile themselves to children entering a long-term gay relationship.

    Akbar and Ali are one such couple who have made things work, against the odds.

    "Ali's family was run by a matriarch," recalls Akbar.

    "His grandmother was the head of the house so I knew that winning her over would mean everything else would fall into place. I took the time to talk to her and convince her that I was a good person. That was first and foremost. It wasn't about 'coming out' in a formal sense. It's more important to convince Ali's family that I'm a good human being.

    "She once gave me a hand-embroidered decorative cloth that she had made as a teenager. She said she was giving it to me because she knew I 'take care of things'. It was a kind gesture and a very personal kind of acceptance."

    uploadfromtaptalk1379805504446.jpg

    Akbar and Ali have now set up home together with the support of their families. Akbar has a good relationship with Ali's mother.

    "She comes to stay with us and I love watching soaps with her. At the end of the night she goes to her room and Ali and I will retire to our room. Two men sleeping in the same bed? Sure she knows what is going on. We don't have to have a big discussion about it."

    Stories like this are, however, exceptionally rare. For many gay men in Pakistan, a heterosexual marriage and a life of anonymous groping is the long-term reality.

    But life can be even more difficult for gay women. Expressions of female sexuality are shunned in the public sphere, even among heterosexuals. So how do gay women make their lives work?

    In Lahore, twenty-something lesbian couple Beena and Fatima have come up with an inventive way to stay together.

    Beena, although not publicly "out", says she is optimistic about the future. "I think we'll have a marriage of convenience. I know some gay guys and maybe we'll do a deal so we put in money together and they have one portion of the house and we'll have another portion. We may as well do that."

    Fatima, who contributes to an invitation-only online gay support group, believes it's only "a matter of time" before Pakistan begins to debate gay rights openly, and people declare their homosexuality with pride.

    "You can't stay in the closet forever. You have to come out. It's inevitable," she says.

    Beena is less hopeful.

    "Gay rights in America came after women had basic rights. You don't see that in Pakistan. You are not allowed a difference of opinion here. My father is a gentleman but I wouldn't put it past him to put a bullet through my head. I'm all for being 'true to myself' but I don't want to die young," she says.

    "I think it's selfish for me to come out and campaign for gay rights now. It's selfish to the women in my family who are fighting for education and the right to marry the man of their dreams, or not to marry at all."

    It may take a generation for any real change to occur - even liberal Pakistanis tend to regard sectarian violence and economic instability as more pressing issues. But there will still be private spaces where gay Pakistanis can express their sexuality openly.

    Some of the names of the contributors have been changed to protect their identities.


    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/23811826
     
  2. Passionate Pakistani
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    Jun 10, 2011
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    Pathetic piece of journalism and the irony is that the author is apparently Muslim and Pakistani.
     
  3. Fireworks11
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    Fireworks11 Fantasy Draft Wins: 1

    Sep 22, 2012
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    Saw this the other day. Pathetic generalisation to say the least. Sure it must exist but this is also a country where honour killings have happened, such is the strict attitude to haram antics.

    Plenty of decent and religious people there as well. The article seems to portray a completely different story.
     
  4. Inswinger
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    Inswinger Tracer Bullet

    Mar 6, 2010
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    A whole lot of exaggeration in this "article".
     
  5. Saul Goodman
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    Saul Goodman Smooth Operator

    Jun 12, 2011
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    God damn faggots. Should give them the russian treatment
     
  6. Saj
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    Saj Formerly Saj001

    Jun 2, 2012
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    A lot of men back home do tend to get into these activities.
     
  7. Saul Goodman
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    Saul Goodman Smooth Operator

    Jun 12, 2011
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    Disgusting degenerates.
     
  8. ComradeVenom
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    ComradeVenom Tracer Bullet

    Jul 24, 2012
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    I dont see how its pathetic journalism. This problem has been well documented previously. In some parts, the dominant partner isn't even seen as gay while the submissive one is the gay one ( sorry if too explicit).

    As far as I know there isnt even a word in Urdu for the dominant one but the word that we typically use for gay means the one who is submissive in this act.
     
  9. Energy
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    Energy Cornered Tiger

    Apr 22, 2012
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    The issue may well exist but the generalisation in this article is way over the top. However, there's no denying the fact that quite a few male-only environments become a breeding ground for homosexuality.
     
  10. WaQaReD!
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    WaQaReD! Talented

    Sep 13, 2011
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    how the hell does a guy get aroused looking at another mans hairy bumhole?
     
  11. Wistful Reminisces
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    Wistful Reminisces Banned

    Sep 21, 2012
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    What the heck?!

    Never knew that.... :s
     
  12. Saul Goodman
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    Saul Goodman Smooth Operator

    Jun 12, 2011
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    If you ask me russia has the right idea. This is just more attempts to erode the normal family structure.
     
  13. Satyagraha
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    Satyagraha Youngsta Beauty

    May 11, 2012
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    It's the nature of the beast.
     
  14. ComradeVenom
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    ComradeVenom Tracer Bullet

    Jul 24, 2012
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    First time I went to Pakistan I was surprised at the number of men dressed as women in lipstick there were kicking around.

    These people make money in 3 ways. Begging, Dancing at Weddings and a thirdway that you can guess. Theres a market for type of stuff but it hurts the feelings of conservative societies when this issue is presented. Instead we collectively pretend it doesn't happen.
     
  15. Raf Pragmatic
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    Raf Pragmatic Banned

    Jan 7, 2013
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    In western nations these kind of news of Pakistan gets lots of appreciation and applause.
     
  16. Feather
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    Feather Head Surfer

    Dec 19, 2009
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    Doesnt seem lot of you have spent much time in Pakistan. There are millions men having sex with each other. I am sorry to be blunt but this isnt new either. These guys will plug into anything. They are not sterotypical gays but normal desi macho guys.

    You would not believe the amount of abuse children in our country go through in schools. I cant believe people think this is not real.
     
  17. Passionate Pakistani
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    Passionate Pakistani Fantasy Draft Wins: 1

    Jun 10, 2011
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    No one is denying that these things don't happen but they happen everywhere.

    I believe 48-50% of Pakistan population is male that makes it roughly 90million now how many of them do you guys know?

    10,20,100,200 how many? And just on the basis of that you guys are generalising that it a common thing in Pakistan.
     
  18. Stan1
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    Stan1 Talented

    Sep 8, 2011
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    It is definitely not rare if not common. There are alot of gay men in Pakistan as pointed out in this thread. For them holding hands, kissing on the cheek etc is nothing - and then naturally they never see any action with females so it progresses to gay sex. Disgusting but true. Also, has no one heard about the freaky stuff they get up to with donkeys? Honestly I have heard from lots of people who visit that something dodgy is going on at night with the animals... there are too many stories from too many different places in Pakistan for it to be just lies.

    If anyone is in doubt go back home, log in to grindr or whatever that gay app is called, and see for yourselves lol

    then come back and report here - cos I sure as hell don't want to look for them lol
     
  19. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

    Dec 17, 2009
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    The problem is not just restricted to Pakistan but also across all over Afghanistan and Middle east. This is not a religious problem but a cultural problem where cultural defects been given a religious cover.

    The shameful part of is the abuse of children which results because of all this. Our molvis cant stop boasting about attempted rape cases in america due to 'fahashi' culture, but turn a blind eye over this issue completely. I have heard about qoum-e-loot stories in friday sermons, mentioning 'western' culture, as if we are doing any better?
     
  20. Wistful Reminisces
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    Wistful Reminisces Banned

    Sep 21, 2012
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    Not true, and I live here
     
  21. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

    Dec 17, 2009
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    You live in the biggest city of Pakistan. These things are pretty relevant in smaller cities and villages. Also in bigger cities it is quite relevant in lower class or the upper class.

    The articles is a bit exaggerated though.
     
  22. Stan1
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    Stan1 Talented

    Sep 8, 2011
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    Can you do a sting operation for us at that place in Karachi in the evening one day, and let us know what actually happens?
     
  23. Wistful Reminisces
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    Wistful Reminisces Banned

    Sep 21, 2012
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    The Mazar? I guess.

    I think the circle thing does happen remembering from when I was there, but I never knew that there was groping, lols.
     
  24. WaQaReD!
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    WaQaReD! Talented

    Sep 13, 2011
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    dont do it! lol
    if you remember the circle thing happening there is little point in going any closer to investigate incase you get a nasty surprise
    I hope you have a fine kashmiri grade willow Ihsan Cricket bat should you run into a few balls coming your way....
     
  25. Wistful Reminisces
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    Wistful Reminisces Banned

    Sep 21, 2012
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    Lols

    But doubt anything happened in the circle, it was just a few people with arms around each other, probably friends, not even a full circle, IIRC
     
  26. Wistful Reminisces
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    Wistful Reminisces Banned

    Sep 21, 2012
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    Lols

    But doubt anything happened in the circle, it was just a few people with arms around each other, probably friends, not even a full circle, IIRC
     
  27. Feather
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    Feather Head Surfer

    Dec 19, 2009
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    For anyone who thinks this isn't true needs medical help soon as possible!

    I am not even interested in a debate. I have raised this issue before here on CS and PP but politely as I didn't want to offend people. There is so much abuse of children within our schools and Islamic schools...I have no idea how people have been able to turn a blind eye to all this.

    I have known about these things since I was a little kid. I don't have to know everyone...to know this is true. You look at the masses and you see how many people are doing this across so many places you then understand where I am coming from...in fact this is pretty standard within Pakistani stage comedy shows to use gay references and jokes.

    Having been to Pakistan recently I was discussing gays with group of guys in Pakistan whom I hung out with...normal guys we went to swim almost everyday together. We were talking about pride weekend in NYC. Couple of them started to laugh...I was like okay. Only to be told they tend to dial "Zero" > O

    and here we people thinking this isn't true...right! okay so the article might be slightly dramatic but c'mon we are talking about a country in which we openly have women working on streets in Middle of Lahore...oops I forgot they have now moved into the bungalows!
     
  28. Feather
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    Feather Head Surfer

    Dec 19, 2009
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    and you also think we don't have khotas in every mohala or every other mohala? Where on earth do you live in Pakistan? and how old are you if you don't mind me asking...
     
  29. Stan1
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    Stan1 Talented

    Sep 8, 2011
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    the arms were at the top, its the material below that causes the real problems!

    Why would you randomly make a circle with your 'friends' and hug anyway?!
     
  30. Passionate Pakistani
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    Passionate Pakistani Fantasy Draft Wins: 1

    Jun 10, 2011
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    :lols at material below :rofl
     
  31. Wistful Reminisces
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    Wistful Reminisces Banned

    Sep 21, 2012
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    Karachi, 19
    :rofl :rofl
     
  32. WaQaReD!
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    WaQaReD! Talented

    Sep 13, 2011
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    I've heard plenty of stories about homo's in Pakistan(Family is from Lahore) and have seen the gays dressing as women and heard stories from friends about other districts/cities in Pakistan.

    Of course this happens - there are sexual deviants in every country/society not least one where sexuality is pretty much suppressed, just think its slightly sensationalist journalism, you never know, maybe its a honeytrap? all these phags from elsewhere might start seeing Pakistan as a gay tourist destination like old white men view bangkok as pedo park and then once they are there some fundi batters all of them(not literally I hope)
    I bet the term 'he bats for the other side' was coined in a cricket mad country like Pakistan
    reckon crafty butcher was too(takes his meat in round the back) deffo not a halal butcher in that case
     
  33. Stan1
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    Stan1 Talented

    Sep 8, 2011
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    LMAO :rofl

    Crafty butcher; takes his kebabs back after hes sold them
     
  34. WaQaReD!
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    WaQaReD! Talented

    Sep 13, 2011
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    Lol - I do Personal Training on weekends, just a few sessions here and there and I have been propositioned by gays and offered money for stuff. Makes me laugh some of the things they come out with but good luck to anyone who wants to come near my ******, would be a brave man indeed, a medal for courage would be called for haha
     
  35. Stan1
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    Stan1 Talented

    Sep 8, 2011
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    WHAT?! People have actually offered you?.... how do they go about it, do they slip it in (ha ha ha!) into conversation...

    "I just think I need to work more on my quads, can you help? fancy a bum I think I will try some more squats

    OR

    "I really think if we both trained nude I would make more progress
     
  36. WaQaReD!
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    WaQaReD! Talented

    Sep 13, 2011
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    Usually it would be a reply to an ad so through email they will ask the question, some are blatant like asking how much I would charge to give them a massage? Mostly it is hints and not blatant propositioning.

    One client I had been helping for a month or so then he took time off, a few months later he text saying he wanted to come train again, I said ok and gave a time. Then on the day he was explicit in what he wanted to take place in the gym - I politely declined his offer whilst calling off the session and hoping rejection forced him to slit his throat lol
     
  37. Stan1
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    Stan1 Talented

    Sep 8, 2011
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    Is this mostly from asians or otherwise?..

    shocking this goes on... you should have said you give not take, then take your chance and violate them with a barbell lol
     
  38. WaQaReD!
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    WaQaReD! Talented

    Sep 13, 2011
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    The gays are not asian - both those who have trained and those who send strange replies
    lol I wouldnt ever say something like that - not just because once my mate tried catching me out by pretending to be a tranny and he actually didnt tell me until a good month or two after it happened but I had refused in my reply, imagine if I had replied 'yes ok, but I like to give only' then I turned up to the gym and my mates jumped out 'Surprise!'
    You think they would believe me when I said 'I was only going to kill you with a barbell'? Oh the shame, would go and console myself to Amir Khan's mum

    Do you find it shocking it goes on in the UK?! I could probably smash your ideals really, you wouldnt trust anyone after listening to it lol
     
  39. Stan1
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    Stan1 Talented

    Sep 8, 2011
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    LOL.... I'm sure it happens in the UK, I have seen it too but with people who want to be open about it. The odd behind closes doors scandal has broken out too though.


    I agree if your mates were playing a joke you could never blag your way out of that one!
     
  40. Bouncer
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    Bouncer Talented

    Jan 14, 2010
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    There has been child molestation in EVERY Pakistani town for decades, even going back to times when there was no internet or no VCR or TV. I would even go a step further and say that the number of child molesters/sex offenders in Pak society would probably be greater than the number of child molesters/sex offenders in half of the non-islamic/western countries (put together).

    Child Molestation is a topic that majority of Pakistan try to avoid discussing...Its a sad reality that people do not expose or punish child molesters in our society, because most of time the offender is related to people who catch the offender (who often times is sexually exploiting someone in family or relatives whereas "How morally corrupt west or non muslim people are" is a topic that almost every living Pakistani in Pak discuses with each other or drags into any conversation, at least once or twice a day.
     

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