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Indian players called me "Kaluu" - Darren Sammy

Discussion in 'Cricket Talk' started by Patriot, Jun 9, 2020.

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  1. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
    16,711
    I think you're being defensive just for the sake of it. A lot of censored words were part of an imported default censorship list, these lists tend to be English language centric. We did add more words if and when they became an issue. I don't think we've had any issue with the word kaala or kaalu here.

    Sammy is West Indian and Perera is Sri Lankan. When you refer to them both together as black it's not because of them being a couple of West Indian or African guys. It's purely and solely based on their skin being darker. It's a racial slur in that specific context. A joke at both their expense.

    Forget all the periphery stuff and concentrate on the facts. Do you ever call anyone a kaala or a kaalu in a positive way? And if you do then is part of the positive mentioning of the word accompanied with laughter?
     
  2. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,655
    This is actually getting a little interesting.

    Let me play a little role of devil's advocate to spice things up.

    So we have folks from two different cultures interacting with each other. Each group has it's cultural norms in extending verbal abuse (we are not talking physical attacks and racial discrimination and we are not talking equal rights etc) - The question, which group's standards should be followed when there is a collision?

    In one culture, if you call someone by their skin color, it's considered OK in most cases and no one cares. Heck! I know some people in Pakistan whose legal name is "Kala Khan" and everyone is cool with it. But in the same culture, if you cuss out at someone's mom or sister, it could potentially end up in bloodbath.

    In the second culture, if you demean someone by their skin color, it's considered offensive and derogatory but in the same culture, if you cuss out at someone's mom and sister, it's really not a biggie.

    So even though, both these cultural traits are wrong (calling someone by their skin color and cussing at out someone's family members), which cultural standard should these two group follow when they both interact?

    I think, as I said, we should not indulge in neither but if you really HAVE to then, the best way is,

    When a desi guy interacts with a western guy, he should avoid calling them kaalu kaala etc but he can take it off of his chest by using cusses like, teri maa ki, teri bhen ki .. and the western guy won't mind. Seriously, look at the language spoken by many blacks when they talk to each other - every second word is a "mot*erf**er", and no one even notices.

    We have also seen it during the sledging that happens among players of the western culture - they take shots at each other's wives etc, and no one complains in the press. At the same time, these western guys are usually careful not to sledge by using the skin color.

    I also noticed that the Australians are somewhat smart, and they don't sledge with mom sister kinda thing when they are playing against Asian players. (Perhaps they know that they will get their a$$ whooped with the bat).


    Two other points are also very interesting.
    First, as I stated in the other thread, is the hypocrisy of blacks.
    When a black guy is called a "nig*er" buy another black guy, it's cool and it's all good.
    But if a non-black person calls a black guy as "nig*er", all hell breaks loose. This is funny of a hypocrisy and downright idiotic of an irony.

    Also, in the western world, if you cuss out at someone's mom and sister, it's tolerable; but if you cuss out at someone's dog or someone's teddy bear, it could lead into serious trouble. :)
     
  3. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,655
    They went after Sarfarz and now after IPL players - but again, the hypocricy kicks again.

    Here is a tweet from none other than Sammy himself.

    Is he a racist towards his own race? What if a white player had tweeted this for Sammy and his friends?

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Mohan
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    Mohan Formerly 'Captain Clutch'

    Nov 4, 2014
    4,273
    Already posted this on the previous page, but this was rubbished with "how can a black be racist towards another black"?

    This is like saying an Indian cannot be racist towards a Pakistani because they are the same race.

    And this bloke actually waited like 4 years to feel offended. Perfectly believable LOL, because his claim that he didn't know the meaning of the word then doesn't hold water anymore due to the following:

     
  5. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
    16,711

    Are you being serious? The word black isn't racist in the English language. It is how you describe black people. You call them black. Unless you add an insult to the word black.

    Saying my black bros is not racist. If he had included dark Sri Lankan or Indian players in the photo and called them black bros then maybe you would have a point.
     
  6. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,655
    Exactly!

    "Black" is not a derogatory term but the way things are going, especially here in the United States, if the same exact tweet "Black Bros" with the same exact photo, had been published by a white man, the reaction would'be been all different.

    Even the term "blackboard" is now considered racist.

    Chinese are also catching up. Calling someone "Oriental" is now politically incorrect.

    I think pretty soon they'll be singing this at kindergartens and primary schools.

    "Baa Baa non-specified colored grain fed halal certified sheep
    Have you any cruelty free wool?
    Yes gender-neutral person, yes gender-neutral person,
    three recycled, eco-friendly bags full"
     
  7. PakistanZindabad!
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    PakistanZindabad! Cornered Tiger

    Sep 29, 2012
    10,446
    The hoops being jumped through here are amazing
    A black person can use the n word because they as a group of people have suffered the connotations associated with that word. Simple as that, we don’t suffer the racism associated so we shouldn’t.

    Calling someone black to describe them is one thing and calling them kaalu is completely different and is definitely racist, don’t understand the need for apologists justifying racism
     
  8. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,655
    Not sure if you are referring to my post but you seem to have conveniently ignored this line


    However, you said something interesting here.

    If "Black" is a politically correct term, then is it OK to call Sammy "Kala" instead of "Kaalu"?
     
  9. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
    16,711
    I can't help but think you're trolling for the sake of it. Why would a white guy tag a picture of black men and call it Black Bros? Sammy is black and included himself as one of the bros in the picture.

    Oriental like coloured has always been a racially charged (though at times accepted) term. All the way back to 'Orientalism' and all that entails.

    It's already been stated that black in the English language is politically correct. Kaala and kaalu are basically the same thing.
     
  10. Choi Saab
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    Choi Saab Smooth Operator

    Oct 4, 2014
    3,997
    There is a reason I gave up lol.
     
  11. PakistanZindabad!
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    PakistanZindabad! Cornered Tiger

    Sep 29, 2012
    10,446
    Genuinely it’s embarrassing to read
     
  12. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,655
    OK this is for my own knowledge to understand your point of view.

    Are you saying that calling someone “Black” in the English language is OK. (And we know that this directly classifies the subject in a particular race category).

    But calling someone “Kala” in Urdu is incorrect? (We are not talking about “Kalu”).
     
  13. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
    16,711
    Do you mean like 'Kaala Sha Kaala'?
     
  14. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,655
    I mean calling someone "Black" in English vs calling someone "Kala" in Urdu. Is one right and other wrong?
     
  15. Mohsin
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    Mohsin Sultan of Swing

    Feb 21, 2010
    15,143
    In English the term is 'black' (or in America, African-American). In Urdu isnt the 'normal' term siya-faam (by which case, there is no need to say 'kaala)?
     
  16. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,655
    This is where the nuance is.

    The situation we are dealing with is: Two different cultures with different norms are interacting. Whose's norms should we follow? Should the change be temporary as long as the interaction lasts or the change should be permanent?

    When we are within our community and the communication happens between desi vs desi then using the word "Kaala" isn't really a big deal. (just like using the word "ni*er" in the communication between two American blacks, is all cool). As I stated above, we even have legal names "Kaala Khan", and as Merc referred to the song, "Kaala Shah Kaala" that is been out for decades and NO ONE took an offence or mention it as "racist".

    Is it racist now because non-desi Africans have a problem with the world "Kaala" and we should change our norms?
    Or what we are saying is that it's OK because the person referred in the song Kaala Shah Kaala is a desi and the person named as "Kaala Khan" is a desi. No one takes offense, so it's all cool.

    Or we are saying that we should avoid using the word "Kaala" when referring to a person of African Origin (and non-desi), but when the same word is used within our own community, hardly anyone takes offense, so it's OK. Heck, we even sell Fair Lovely cream and people buy it like crazy. No one says it's racist. Everyone is OK with it - but all hell will break loose if the same product is marketed in USA.

    So the question is: Should we follow the western standards and stop using the word "Kaala" in our desi vs desi communication because according to western terms, it's racist when you call a person of African Origin "Kaala" in Urdu but calling the same person as "Black" in English language is OK?

    Had Sarfaraz used the term "Siya faam", would that be OK to Phehlukwayo and all other apologists?
     
  17. thair9999
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    thair9999 Emerging Player

    Oct 17, 2010
    594
    I just looked at this discussion today. It is simple; For a decent human being if we know some terms are raciest (may not to us) to others we should refrain using them. Specially when Islam is totally against racism. There are billion other ways to sledging the other team
     
  18. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,655
    In principle yes, no doubt in that and we all agree.
    However, unfortunately this does not always happen in reality, so we need to discuss the ground reality instead of an already agreed upon morality of the subject.

    We are dealing with an interesting situation where we have a few factors that are in play when two different cultural norms collide, and want to discuss the smart way to deal with it.
    And looks like you sort of agree with what I stated in 42.

    When desis sledge non-desis (and I am personally NOT in favor of ANY kind of sledging to begin with) then they should refrain from using the Urdu word "Kaala", yet they can use the word BLACK when speaking English but they must use this word in non-racial and non-offensive way (not sure if our players are THIS smart).

    Desis, when sledging westerners, can use mom sister cusses because it's not severely offensive to westerners. However, desis should NOT cuss out at the dog or a teddy bear of a westerner because then it becomes severely offensive.

    And when desis sledge desis, they should avoid mom sister cusses because that's very offensive, but they can cuss out at the dog or a teddy bear of a desi player and it should be OK.

    Is cussing out wrong? HELL YEAH.
    Should we avoid cussing out? HELL YEAH
    Does it really happen in the real world? HELL NO!

    End of discussion.
     
  19. Prince Pathan
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    Prince Pathan Sultan of Swing

    Aug 31, 2011
    16,900
    This post is quite damning of Sammy to be honest. He obviously knows what it means and was okay with it.

    Have not seen this before

    They were obviously racist calling him Kaalu but that post from 2014 suggests he knew what they meant.
     
  20. TalhaSyed
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    TalhaSyed Youngsta Beauty

    Mar 12, 2018
    43
    This is just bizarre.

    Cannot imagine going around calling someone Kaalu as a nickname. Sure in Indo-Pak culture its common to refer to people as kaala, but that doesn't make it justifiable or right and going around using the word as a nickname just seems absolutely ridiculous and completely messed up.
     
  21. thair9999
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    thair9999 Emerging Player

    Oct 17, 2010
    594
  22. Passionate Pakistani
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    Passionate Pakistani Fantasy Draft Wins: 1

    Jun 10, 2011
    68,366
    As if Indians themselves are any goray lol

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
     
  23. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,655
    Sarfaraz also said something along those lines
     
  24. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,655
    How about using the term “Kaali Aandhi”?

    We used it perhaps not in racial terms but more like a metaphor for a “fearless and dominating force”.

    Was it racist? Even though we had no intention to demean them but it was more of a praise and acknowledgement.
     
  25. Passionate Pakistani
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    Passionate Pakistani Fantasy Draft Wins: 1

    Jun 10, 2011
    68,366
    Sarfaraz was also being a racist

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
     
  26. Prince Pathan
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    Prince Pathan Sultan of Swing

    Aug 31, 2011
    16,900
    Its definitely racist. I think we all know why people are calling West Indies Kaali Aandhi LOL
     
  27. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,655

    I think it holds a lot more potency of being a racist when you measure the scenario by “Western standards” but not as potent (even though still wrong and mildly racist) when you measure it by “South Asian standards”.

    And as I said before,
    Mom sister cusses are super offensive in potency when measured by South Asian standards but they are pretty mild in potency when measured by Western Standards.

    Even though I agree that racial terms and verbal profanity are both wrong and must be avoided; however, we don’t live in an ideal world. And hence this becomes an interesting scenario.

    And that’s where the entire argument lies. Whose standards should dominate when two cultures of different social norms interact?

    Desis, when interact with westerners should avoid using racial terms but they won’t get into trouble for using profanity? (Even though they shouldn’t use profanity either but then again, we don’t live on an ideal world).

    Is that a good middle ground?

    OR
    We should adopt Western Standards and don’t use racial terms within our social norms because we have now learned from the West that it’s a super racially charged term when a desi uses the term kaala when he interacts with another desi?

    But here is the catch then,
    We should also learn from the Western Standards that mom sis cusses are not as bad as calling a fellow desi as kaala?
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2020
  28. thair9999
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    thair9999 Emerging Player

    Oct 17, 2010
    594
    How will you make westerners to stop what is offensive to Desis?

    OR

    Again how would you stop westerners to adopt to Desi norms?
     
  29. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,655
    I posted this earlier.

    Westerners actually already know this, that mom sis cuss is very offensive to desis, so westerners don't mess with it.

    Remember, in Australia they sledged Botham by taking shots as his wife, but when it came to sledging Saqlan while he was batting, they called him Mr. Bean and laughed at him.
     

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