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Judicial commission rejects allegations of systematic rigging in 2013 polls

Discussion in 'The Pavilion' started by Passionate Pakistani, Jul 22, 2015.

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  1. Passionate Pakistani
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    Passionate Pakistani Fantasy Draft Wins: 1

    Jun 10, 2011
    68,366



    what a waste of time and money. and emotions.

    massive setback for PTI and will lose big support because of this... ab iss kai khilaf bhi dharna do. facepalm
     
  2. Passionate Pakistani
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    Passionate Pakistani Fantasy Draft Wins: 1

    Jun 10, 2011
    68,366
    and all those people who died during dharnas and jalsas etc.. and those who left their jobs etc .. everything will be forgotten.

    what a waste... pti should publicly apologise to all those.
     
  3. Don Corleone
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    Don Corleone Kaptaan

    Jul 20, 2012
    29,472
    Makes sense.

    PTI never had any presence in the rural areas of Pakistan where majority of the seats lies and the conservative votes were always gonna go to the traditional parties which this time around was PML-N.

    Apart from some rigging in some areas(where Najam Sethi might have had a role to play) by PML-N to ensure PTI and other parties didn't get some seats in cities counted as their stronghold, it was always hard to see how PTI would 'sweep' the elections. They were a relatively new party. People didn't know them and their campaign was far from anything special.

    If you remember then independent polls before the elections also predicted PTI to end up with around 40-50 seats at most with PML-N winning.

    There were problems in Karachi though, I remember the election commission saying they failed to hold free & fair elections there at the election day.
     
  4. Fawad
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    Fawad Sultan of Swing

    Sep 1, 2010
    16,515
    I was honestly expecting a verdict for the PTI, as I believe there was dhandli in the elections, but it's a shame that they couldn't prove it/didn't have as much evidence as they claimed. Could be the end of PTI as a mainstream party if leadership isn't careful, now they have been focusing on smaller targets like MQM instead of PPP and PMLN.
     
  5. ASLI-PATHAN
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    ASLI-PATHAN Cricistan Khan

    Apr 26, 2011
    64,629
    Imran Khan made very tall claims and it was very difficult to prove those claims. I hope he learns from this and there is no doubt about his intentions but his means were wrong to get his goals.
     
  6. Feather
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    Feather Head Surfer

    Dec 19, 2009
    2,250
    Take this with a bucket full of salt!

    I was in Pakistan at the time of elections. I am very big into horse racing in Pakistan. Which means I know lots of bookies. LOTS!

    Anyway one night we were sitting around discussing cricket with couple of bookies. Someone calls a friend of ours. Wants to take bets up to 2 cores. That a certain someone was going to win the elections in that city. So I am sitting there thinking WTF? betting on elections? :-O

    Anyway in the next few days leading up to the elections. I witnessed people make bets on who was going to win and who wasn't. Anyway...the real clients who were using these bookies as proxies were handy men of those competing in the elections.

    Far as I am remember...those guys walked away with millions. I find it hard to believe they didn't know they were going to win.

    I would share other info but it easily gets tracked so take this post as another theory within these forums.

    * PS I am no supporter of Imran in fact I have some very negative posts abut him in these forums. However to say there was no cheating lol...
     
  7. Top Spinner01
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    Top Spinner01 Tracer Bullet

    Feb 27, 2013
    7,515
    Assalam o alaikum and Eid mubarak to everyone.
     
  8. Mars
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    Mars Talented

    Apr 23, 2012
    2,699
    Politically Immature - MFZ!

    Enough said.
     
  9. Invictus
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    Invictus Talented

    Feb 15, 2010
    1,236
    People fail to realize that it is very easy to scream rigging but in the court of law you can't just claim rigging. The charges have to be pretty precise and you have to prove it beyond reasonable doubt. What PTI brought before the court was this claim:

    According to the terms of reference (ToR), the commission was to investigate whether the elections were manipulated or influenced in a systematic manner or by design by anyone, or not. It was also to decide whether the poll results, on an overall basis, were a true and fair reflection of the mandate given by the electorate or not.

    Now I am not a lawyer but this is very hard to prove. You have to prove "systematic manner or by design" which means collusion from top down. So you are basically implicating that the state machinery colluded with a third party in a systematic manner.
    So in other words you can prove beyond a doubt that rigging happened in Polling Station A, B and C. But that does not prove that the "elections were manipulated or influenced in a systematic manner or by design by anyone"
    I expected this outcome. In order to prove this you need a "smoking gun" kind of situation. Someone from inside or official documentation laying out the plan. No court would implicate the government on circumstantial evidence when the fall-out would be huge.
    Imran is just way too naive. He has proven it time and time again.
     
  10. Feather
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    Feather Head Surfer

    Dec 19, 2009
    2,250
    @Invictus in complete agreement with everything you said. Very well put together post.

    I don't read Pakistani news anymore or pay attention. Most of everything is either just over blown or the facts are so twisted might as well make news and create facts for entertainment and fun.

    I have seen rigging first hand. Buying votes and seats. During the elections when I was in Pakistan one of my childhood best friends was basically managing a campaign for his relative. He asked me so many times to come along with him and be a super VIP and I was like no thanks.

    I can never forget...I was in his home and his mom comes and says to me. You might live in the US but go out with her son and experience Pakistan like a KING..and I was like oh okay :-/

    The person running the campaign and the core group of supporters are the ones who do all the dirty work.

    PTI had most of their local chapter Presidents and core workers picked up by police! I know this for a fact because I know least two guys who were locked up for 2-4 months. I posted about one in these forums. His chacha is a VERY senior police officer. Still couldn't get him bailed.

    DCO's had very strict orders. NO FIR was registered and they have this special authority to keep people in jail without ever presenting them front of the judge for up to three months.
     
  11. Wistful Reminisces
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    Wistful Reminisces Banned

    Sep 21, 2012
    20,696
    The report seems to be saying elections were completely fair. Now I don't believe that every polling station was rigged or something, but the report makes it seem like we had elections on the level of Europe, US, Australia, etc. That is not the case, there was widespread rigging

    Here's a question, does anyone believe there was absolutely no rigging? If you don't, then there needs to be a review of what can be done to stop rigging. Were votes bought for money? Absolutely

    The JC wants proof that rigging was systematic. That is impossible to prove, no matter how much evidence PTI or any party brings. For this, all rigging must be done to benefit one party in a lot of areas. This happened. The next thing that is needed was for a link between the party and every single polling station where rigging happened. What is needed is proof that the top of the government food chain conspired in rigging down to the very bottom where rigging happened. Such high standards of proof are always going to be impossible to bring in. I challenge these same standards to be applied in Karachi itself, and even here "systematic" rigging will never be proved. Rigging happened though

    It's a whitewash, and as usual, people will swallow it up in hate of PTI. They were wrong in what they alleged about Sethi with no proof, but the system is not even nearly good enough and the sooner people accept it instead of using it as an excuse to laugh at PTI, the sooner it can change.

    Already in this thread, we are seeing some posters talking about how PTI had no rural support. Yet a lot of rural support for PTI and PML-N is based on buying off voters or getting them to vote for their Chaudhary of the area so that they can continue farming on their lands. That is not a fair election in any sense of the word. Are people expecting PTI to buy landowners off and get them to compete? PTI can easily do so but it's bonkers to ask for a party to cheat to win. In the end, this is rigging as well, even if it's not at the polling station.

    People won't accept that but the elections in this country were rigged, whether they be systematic or not. Noon League has many MNA's that have been elected in dodgy circumstances. Whether it be done by the MNA's themselves or the party as a whole does not matter. It is not just PTI that has been robbed, but also the People's Party who don't have the guts to speak up because it might expose their own rigging. That is the truth of the elections, but carry on believing that people in rural areas voted for PML-N because they believed in them or anything else you want to console yourselves it. Because in the end, rigging is rigging, even if it's not done systematically or at the polling booth.

    It also does not matter if the rigging was done but PTI wouldn't have swept. That it happened is a problem in itself. PTI may not have swept the elections but the seats themselves might have allowed PTI and PPP to combine and be a proper opposition at times. PML-N might not have had a majority without rigging and that is a very important fact to remember
     
  12. Feather
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    Feather Head Surfer

    Dec 19, 2009
    2,250
    Just want to point out something. PTI isn't as clean as most people believe it to be. Plenty of crooks within the PTI as well. Just because the person running isn't known as a crook doesn't mean...the money behind him or his supporters aren't.

    In Pakistan local elections are won based on...kis ne kis ko jail se bachaya. Kis ne kis ki larai katham kerwayi. Kis ne kis ka kaam kiya. That is the basis for loyal support. After this...then its money which buys votes etc.
     
  13. Invictus
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    Invictus Talented

    Feb 15, 2010
    1,236
    I don't think that is what the report is saying. It was not their mandate to verify if the entire election was clean. The mandate of the committee was set-up by PTI. PTI should have thought about it when they went in with their demands.
    Infact the EC itself asked for a re-election in NA-246. So ofcourse their was rigging and the EC admits it themself and took measures.
    PTI should have framed their reference better. They should have thought this through. You can't blame anyone but them. They asked for these terms. Hell they raised hell to get their terms. They got out-maneuvered by Noon League, again.
    Infact that's my biggest gripe with Imran and PTI. He has gotten played time and time again.

    - He got played by PP and PML(N) during the lawyer movement. Imran was at the fore-front of the movement when it started. He was at the fore-front when it gained momentum. But by the time it ended, everyone got what they wanted but PTI. Both PPP and PML(N) got more credit and concessions from the movement. PTI got nothing
    - Got played by CJ Iftikhar Chaudary. Who used him and them discarded him for PML(N)
    - Just got played by Nawaz just now
    - Has been getting played by JI since the beginning of time. They use Imran and his image. PTI and Imran get nothing from JI. Infact it causes his and parties image harm. JI has everything to gain. They get seats because PTI accommodates them. They get power in terms of ministries in KP. What does PTI get from its association with JI ?

    If Imran and PTI cant handle local players even with the huge vote bank and street cred how would they handle people who move on international level ?
     
  14. Invictus
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    Invictus Talented

    Feb 15, 2010
    1,236
    Dude that's how politics is done in Pakistan. To be fair all politics is local everywhere. You should have gone and enjoyed the show.
     
  15. Wistful Reminisces
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    Wistful Reminisces Banned

    Sep 21, 2012
    20,696
    PTI believed that the rigging was systematic. The proof they had was not of the level the judges required. However, what PTI believed was that the judges would give an honest appraisal of the situation, regardless of what happened. They didn't. That is not PTI's problem, imo, but a problem of the judiciary itself. For a supposedly independent entity, they sure are intent on favouring a certain party. Taking suo moto action on the price of Samosas in Lahore but not on serious business. That is the SC of Pakistan

    Imran has not been played here. He expected the court to be a bit more honest. At the international level, there is a bit more honesty. He will have experts advising him, bureaucrats who've played the game at the highest level. In government, Imran will have access to a lot more information than he has now. He will not be played as easily then.

    In the end, the country will suffer because the people who live here are *****. That is the truth. Imran probably believed that people would leave some of their prejudices and vote for a better future. They don't, and all we see is intellectuals who agree all are corrupt still mocking the only good alternative (As shown in this thread itself) and people at the local level supporting Nawaz Sharif or other leaders because they're Punjabi/Sindhi/Mohajir. That is the truth and Imran won't suffer for this, Pakistanis will

    I don't support IK. He hasn't covered himself in glory over a lot of his decisions. The rest of the alternatives are some of the most corrupt, disgusting people in this country, and that 40-45% of the country voted for a murdering traitor is proof enough that this country deserves everything it gets
     
  16. shahbaz
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    shahbaz Banned

    Oct 4, 2012
    659
    So many N League patwaris !! heck man where is this Pakistan heading .. your very own must be on very high posts with the ashirwad of Senior patwaris .. don't blame PTI .. Blame these chipmunks on the hot seats .. everyknows they rigged the election like mad .. I witnessed it myself but man o man ppl interest come first .. yours is in PMLN patwari league the majority who are talking crazy are all abroad ..Come to Pakistan and then do the tabelgh.
     
  17. Top Spinner01
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    Top Spinner01 Tracer Bullet

    Feb 27, 2013
    7,515
    Agree to some extent the report seems to have taken fairness and justice to whole new level,goes without saying 13-election was massively rigged in Balochistan and kp along with with some parts of Karachi and Punjab.The main problem with Imran was that he was asking the main rigger (the establishment or the umpire) for a role to play(how ironic) and that is why we opposed his dharna movement.
     
  18. Savak
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    Savak Emerging Player

    Feb 26, 2013
    967
    The naivity of some people. Do you honestly expect a Pakistani court to rule against such a corrupt, powerful, conniving ruling elite?

    Those who believe in system based peaceful resolutions are just naive, only street power violent revolutions are the only way to bring some fear into this ruling cabal.

    On another note, there is no way in hell are we ever going to see such a massive participation in elections again after the silent majority has seen what happened to PTI and how the same corrupt, conniving mafia keeps getting away with it again and again.
     
  19. shahbaz
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    shahbaz Banned

    Oct 4, 2012
    659
    It wasnt rigged that much in KPK it was rigged massively in Whole Punjab.Senior Noora isn't that sweet.
     
  20. Invictus
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    Invictus Talented

    Feb 15, 2010
    1,236
    Bud court cases do not work that way. Courts cannot just go ahead and give an "honest appraisal" outside of the scope of the charges.
    For instance lets say you robbed and murdered a dude. The state charges you for murder. In the court case the judges find there isn't enough evidence to charge you for murder. The judges now cannot take an honest appraisal and try to charge you for robbery. Because:

    - The judges do not charge you or determine your charge. They provide judgement. The onus is on the actor (state/or otherwsie) to charge the guilty party and then provide supporting evidence.
    - You are not being tried for robbery you are being tried for murder, end of story. There needs to be a separate charge on you for robbery and you need to be tried for that separately.

    Really you are seeing this now ? You didn't notice that trend during the last year of Mush and then the 5 years of Zardari ? You didn't notice that the courts were being extremely biased and actively trying to subvert the government ? In a way that it would favor Nawaz.
    But since it was against Mush and then Zardari it was fine. Now that PTI is facing the same courts its an issue now ?

    Dude anyone that deals with the Pakistani courts would tell you that the game is cooked at all levels. For PTI to not take the realities on the ground into account speaks poorly of them.

    Why dude ? Based on what evidence ? He himself have been openly talking about the collusion between Iftikhar Cahudry and Nawaz. The judges that now sit in the SC are Iftikhar's colleagues. That worked with him for decades. You think if Iftikhar was dirty then these guys wouldn't know ?And if they knew and still supported him what does that make them ? Corrupt in my book or at the very least complacent. And if they didn't know then it makes them incompetent, which is worst in my book.
    Its childish to expect Pakistani courts to all of a sudden be all clean because one guy got re-instated couple of years ago. No reforms, no changes nothing but all of a sudden one guy gets re-instated and apparently judiciary is free in Pakistan. Because of magic ? Where in the world does things change because people said they have changed ?
    If the court system was free you would see it. Mush would be in jail, he is not. The missing people of Balochistan would be free or atleast found, they are not. Head of LJ wont be walking free, he is.


    Come the **** on man. You can't be that young or naive man. Were you not around to see the U.N speech of Collin Powell with the weapons of mass destruction video evidence and all that before the invasion of Iraq ?
    Have you heard of the sykes picot agreement of 1916 ?
    And just that's two examples at the top of my head. You can write books on outright lies and deceits on international level.
    Countries have no conscious or feelings. Countries have interest and they do whatever it takes to meet those.
    Its all hawks and snakes at that level bud. You don't get to that level by being clean or nice or honest.

    He has the same access and privileges right now. When he gets into power people wont fall from the sky into his lap. He will be surrounded by the same people he has around him now.

    Yup people voted man. This is what they want.

    Yup countries get leaders from amongst themselves. People elect people they can relate to. Its nothing new.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2015

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