Pakistan's problem is not just corruption

Discussion in 'The Pavilion' started by iho, Mar 21, 2018.

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  1. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

    Aug 7, 2010
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    Why is Pakistan unable to compete with India or the countries in the region. Is it just corruption that is a single reason why we are left behind. If IK becomes the PM, will we become HK or Dubai or our GDP will touch double digits. Nothing will change unless the political instability and terrorism is brought to end. Country needs foreign investments to grow and to be able to improve its exports. Who will invest in a country where governments are weak and unstable. If PTI comes in power there will still be those deep state elements who would try to destabilize the govt for their vested interest. So the problem is just not corruption. The political instability is the root cause of all failures and indirectly corruption. independent research has proved this theory in the third world countries
     
  2. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    no. the issue is not political stability. greece had political stability, so did Portugal, Ireland and Italy - it didn't stop those countries going into the toilet. it was financial mismanagement and corruption that did.

    what evidence do you have that political stability will suddenly make the country HK or dubai? on terrorism I agree, but there has been stability there thanks to the army for a couple of years.

    political stability, on the contrary has marched the country towards leakage of billions of dollars, massively exploding debt burden, rising unemployment, worsening educational standards, deteriorating exports, collapsing foreign reserves and an accelerating breakneck pace toward insolvency and a failed state.

    if IK or another non-corrupt government comes into play, things will probably get worse in the short term - because that corrupt liquidity that the current government has stolen from the people by way of foreign deals like CPEC will go. there will be lots of short term pain, that will be necessary for medium and long term recovery. the alternative is things becoming massively worse in the short, medium and long term. have a look at Egypt as another example. the biggest problem will be this public attitude of immediate gratification after decades of excess. Morsi got in, that short term pain started to bite because the IMF suspended support and short term liquidity (backed by western and gulf interests despite their empty love for democracy), the people revolted and here they are with Mubarak 2.0 with no sovereignty, and the people essentially enslaved to the whim of international creditors in Saudi and the usa. any revolt is met with death.

    this isnt even opinion, its mathematical fact, just look at the debt burden and working capital balance - all these numbers are easily available online.

    foreign investment is not the end goal, thats a corollary either of opportunities to steal, or for structural growth. domestic economic sustainability is the goal, and with that will come foreign investment.

    the reason foreigners are not investing currently is not the security situation or political instability - this level of political stability was hardly different in the past, in fact foreign inflows flourished when there have been coups. foreigners are not investing because the economy is about to collapse thanks to the PPP and PMLN and their amateurish policies over decades. it has nothing to do with dharnas and protests for a few months which is what they will try to blame it on to the ignorant, its based on decades of over borrowing and underinvesting and out and out robbery.

    as a last example, look at this latest amnesty deal the current government has put in place. allowing billions that have been stolen (estimated at $130bn or more) to be repatriated scot free. its a joke.

    the following website is an economic data site which will provide most of the data you might need and is easy to navigate if you want to see for yourself:

    https://tradingeconomics.com/pakistan/capital-flows
     
  3. iAd
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    iAd Sultan of Swing

    Nov 9, 2012
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    What @godzilla said. There are plenty of stable countries who aren't doing well at all. This whole deep state narrative is overblown as well. Maybe in the past but not anymore. The army only has control over Defence & Foreign Policy today and the latter one only so because PMLN ignored it for the majority of its term. The establishment didn't interfere in criminal justice reform, economic reform or any other government function except defence and foriegn policy for the last decade. And in the end the tenure of both ruling parties led to worsening conditions for our country. The deep state narrative is just a tool for supporters of the PPP, PMLN & MQM to blame their failures on the military. Which is ironic since two of the three named parties were created by the deep state and flourished in dictatorships.
     
  4. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

    Aug 7, 2010
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    Its just a myth that stolen money is the root cause of Pakistan down fall. So NS was involved in money laundering back in 90's or some kick backs in govt project. Do you thing if we retrieve all that money with interest would be sufficient to get country back on track. Check this research conducted on the political instability and its impact on economy.
    http://ce.vizja.pl/en/download-pdf/id/386
     
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  5. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    youve written two things here, firstly that stolen money is not related to the downfall of pakistan, and then a study allegedly supporting a focus on political stability as the root cause for economic volatility.

    firstly, why is it a myth that stolen money is the root cause of paksitans downfall? ive given you hard facts on the working capital situation, and referenced similar situations of greece, Italy, Ireland, Portugal as evidence that very obviously and mathematically, when you run out of reserves and you have to pay huge interest bills on your debt, you go bankrupt. im not making a comparison between pakistan and greece in terms of politics - its simply an illustration of a universal principle that if you cant pay your debts you go bankrupt and we have seen how that applies on an international level.

    your response is not to address any of the factual numbers, but simply to state "its a myth". is that the extent to your argument? and yes, bringing back $130bn+ of stolen money will help the country much more than the approaching $1bn a month current account deficit, immanent need for further high cost funding, and impending economic implosion.


    secondly, on the study you linked, have you read this link, or are you just forwarding it because you've picked it up from some nooras trying to stupidly defend their indefensible position?

    (i) the most embarassing thing about this bullshit, is that by their very own definition in that study, pakistan is a politically stable nation. the definition of political stability that they used for their study is on page 51. in it theyve also stated that the measures that they use for political stability are entirely subjective, and the measures they use for corruption are entirely subjective for the reasons they highlight. so these measures are essentially meaningless.

    (ii) secondly on page 54 they show how the projected impact of the variables are insignificant. even if there is causality, its so small given they are modelling the whole society on three simple ill defined variables - that any correlation is meaningless.

    (iii) the study is about west Africa, not pakistan. it has nothing whatsoever to do with pakistan. even they claim again and again, because of the subjectivity in point (i) above, that it applies only to west Africa.

    (iv) even if you reject all of that, from the study itself, bottom of page 54 "Moreover, corruption is more important than political instability in explaining shocks to economic development in the short and long term." which totally argues against the point you are making, and emphasise the point me and @iAd were making.

    (v) even if you reject all of that, they say "This result implies that political instability Granger-causes economic development" (page 53) which again argues AGAINST your point - political instability has a POSITIVE economic impact, not a negative one. just to be clear, they say it multiple times throughout the document, for example, page 55 "In sum, the empirical results indicate that there is positive causality running from political instabil- ity to economic development in the short term "

    (vi) finally, and this is the funniest part of it, in their 'Conclusions and Recommendations' section on page 56, they say "Political instability is the most important variable accounting for shocks in corruption, while corruption is the most important variable accounting for shocks in political instability and economic development."

    perhaps you want to read that again : " corruption is the most important variable accounting for shocks in.. economic development". the exact opposite of what you were attempting to show lol.
     
  6. abc_to_xyz
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    abc_to_xyz Youngsta Beauty

    Nov 20, 2016
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    Its the character of people. Corruption is only a single trait of us. We are not made to live like a self-sustaining nation. We do need danda of Britains to keep things in order.
     
  7. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

    Aug 7, 2010
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    One very good example is that of neighboring India, despite of having huge corruption during the congress govt between 2000-2010, India progressed economically. During last 70 years India has been politically stable, however their ruling ministers have been involved in billion of RS in corruption, yet the country has gradually progressed in the right direction. India is ranked at 81st place out of 180 in corruption index yet the country has done so much better than Pakistan. Point is that yes corruption is a problem and country’s economy loses significantly because of corruption but it is not the primary reason for country to not progress. If countries are political stable then they continue to progress despite of high corruption index.
     
  8. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    the link you sent suggests it is exactly the primary reason. again, why dont you substantiate WHY you claim it is not?

    the comparison with India does not work without knowing exactly what the measure is for corruption, and in what way their relative corruption is comparable.

    even if you are right (without linking any evidence) that say indian politicians have been as corrupt as Pakistani ones, and have embezzled lets say $100bn for the sake of argument. well the Pakistani GDP is $284bn, so that would be equivalent of 35% of GDP. the indian GDP is $2,264bn, so that would be 4.4% of GDP. thats why as much as you want to keep trying, these comparisons do not work, and are irrelevant.

    this thread has been a total dismantling of your conjectures, using your own arguments.
     
  9. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

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    ps, again to use your own argument, India is indeed 81 on that corruption index, pakistan is 118. how can you possibly think that they are both similarly corrupt?
     
  10. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

    Aug 7, 2010
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    I think you have missed the gist of this post. The main point is corruption is not the only or the primary reason for Pakistani problems. The main problem is political instability and terrorism followed by corruption. So corruption is a problem but not the primary problem. Also don’t know where did you come up with this number of $110 Bln. Did NS and AZ personally looted this money from national exchequer? I have never heard this anywhere in the media. My point will be proved once PTI will be in power and the political instability and leg pulling will paralyze all their efforts like has happened with all previous civilian governments
     
  11. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    wow. ok it lets be very, very clear:



    "The main point is corruption is not the only or the primary reason for Pakistani problems"

    how do you know this? the link to that research paper directly contradicts this statement and claims "corruption is the most important variable accounting for shocks in political instability and economic development"





    "The main problem is political instability and terrorism followed by corruption"

    how do you know this? the link to that research paper directly contradicts this statement and claims "political instability has a POSITIVE economic impact"

    "So corruption is a problem but not the primary problem"

    says who?? certainly not the people who wrote the paper you referenced.






    "Also don’t know where did you come up with this number of $110 Bln"

    did I mention $110bn? I mentioned that an estimate was $130bn, and later in destroying your last nonsense about a comparison with India used $100bn as a round number to make it easier for you to understand. where did I get $130bn as an ESTIMATE? from every paper last week that reported on the latest PMLN scandal about an amnesty scheme to allow thieves and looters to bring back stolen wealth for no penalty, "A chartered accountancy firm has estimated the value of offshore assets held by Pakistanis at $130 billion." from:

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/1665240/2-pakistanis-likely-bring-back-5-billion-amnesty-scheme/

    also

    "According to an estimate, Pakistanis hold around $130 billion money in foreign countries and they have invested the ill-gotten money in businesses and properties besides keeping them in banks and other firms."

    https://tns.world/pakistan-may-bring-back-5-billion-through-proposed-amnesty/

    "He said that Finance Minister Ishaq Dar has said that Pakistanis have stashed 200 billion dollars abroad while a group of foreign investors has claimed that the money hoarded in foreign countries is 150 billion dollars."

    https://nation.com.pk/12-Sep-2017/p...ign-banks?show=previewutm_medium=PoliticsNewz


    shall I go on? perhaps you should read about the things you make ridiculous claims about.





    "My point will be proved once PTI will be in power and the political instability and leg pulling will paralyze all their efforts like has happened with all previous civilian governments"

    well if you and your kind have their way, good luck to you when your country goes bankrupt (I see you still havent addressed even one factual economic figure at all, like all nooras), institutions close down, the country becomes a failed state, there are widespread protests and riots for food, inflation goes hyper inflated like in Zimbabwe, and the country becomes a proxy playground to secure nuclear weapons between the usa and Russia because your heroes have bankrupted the country with theft and incompetent and deceptive economic policy.

    show me how you get out of the current economic trajectory of disaster in this stable political system of thieves and fraudsters?



    you have not only failed to substantiate your point of view, you have gone on to provide copious amounts evidence to show why your own point is totaly and utterly wrong. I think its you that doesnt understand what you have written. ill ask again, did you read that link you quoted?
     
  12. Donal Cozzie
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    Donal Cozzie Smooth Operator

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    [​IMG]
     
  13. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

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    Pakistanis will continue to do corruption even if PTI is in power. The corruption index did not go down when Musharraf was in power.
    It seems you ignored this paragraph completely. This is the last paragraph in the conclusion - "The findings of this study suggest that years of political instability have contributed to the high rate of corruption and underdevelopment in ECOWAS countries. Researchers have confirmed that corruption increases with political instability (see Lederman et al., 2005; Leite & Weidmann, 1999; Park, 2003)."

    The 200 Bln stashed abroad is a collective corruption over the years both during civilian and non civilian governments, so there is no evidence to suggest that PTI getting into power will be able stop the flow of that corruption. President Musharraf ruled the country for 10 years, if that couldn't change corruption in the country then how do you think PTI government will be able to resolve this problem in the presence of political instability.

    Conclusion is bring anyone in the power by manipulations that is currently being done by the Pakistani deep state establishment, nothing will change unless there is a political stability in the country.

    BTW:You look petty when you write sentences like these "you and your kind", calling poster "nooras". Piece of advise is to focus on post and not on the poster. Your message will be more effective.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
  14. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

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    fair enough, my apologies for that. but it is frustrating when someone pretends to open a debate and then fails to address any of the points raised and keeps repeating some unsubstantiated assertions - a piece of advice to you, you wont be taken seriously if you dont do the courtesy of a response to someone who takes the trouble to read your writing.

    at this point, its quite obvious from your lack of response to the points raised that you are not interested in a discussion, and I have thoroughly and comprehensively debunked your assertions which are plain wrong. so I wont waste my time any further.
     
  15. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

    Aug 7, 2010
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    I don’t know what else you want me to substantiate. In general the Pakistani population is naive to believe that corruption is only problem facing the country but in reality it’s proved through research that political instability contributes to both corruption and terrorism. By the way the current PMLN government has not been accused or faced any corruption scandals in past 5 years other than this panamagate which is dated back 20 years. Also you did not answer on how PTI will be able to curb the overall corruption in the country without political stability when President Musharraf who being a non corrupt dictator was not able to eradicate this menace. Also you need to understand that I’m not trying to eliminate the impact of corruption on the country. The impact is huge as you have emphasized in your responses. What I’m trying to highlight is that political instability is a greater menace which is not even talked about by our General population or politicians like IK who wants to become PM at all cost even if it means destabilizing an elected govt.
     
  16. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

    Dec 17, 2009
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    Leaders are from within us. For a Zardari and nawaz Sharif we did produce an Imran Khan. Although I do agree that most of our population supports hadharami, corruption etc. But we still have enough people to run this country like it should be run. But can we make them good and honest managers to manage our country? Imran khan is struggling to do that. Even in major cities forget the 70% of rural areas of Pakistan.

    This system has to be cleaned from the outside rather then from the inside.
     
  17. DONhill
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    DONhill Talented

    Feb 4, 2015
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    International narrative.

    Before 2000, Pakistan was ahead of India, because India had a negative image internationally, now this has reversed. Remember there is corruption in both countries.

    Tomorrow, if the international community start say investing in Pakistan (which Inshallah they will with CPEC on the horizon etc) - then the tables will turn again.

    The terrorism line is nonsense, given more terrorist attacks have taken place in India compared to Pakistan.
     
  18. Passionate Pakistani
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    Passionate Pakistani The Don

    Jun 10, 2011
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    I agree Pakistan only problem is not just corruption but those people who still somehow defend crooks like nawaz and zardari despite being tried again and again and again

    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
     
  19. Del
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    Del Tracer Bullet

    Dec 21, 2016
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    Every country in the world has its own problems, corruption is one of it.

    Yes corruption is not the only issue, which Pakistan has, but its one of the biggest. And it doesn't only include crook politicians. A huge chunk of population is either indulge or has been in some capacity. People do it when its in their power, and its human nature. You need strict rules, which everybody has to obey, but it doesn't happen in Pakistan. There are clearly two different set of rules, rules are only for civilian to follow and powerful elite class is above the law. Thats why I like PTI's slogan - Dou nahi Aik Pakistan !!!
     
  20. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

    Aug 7, 2010
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    Countries with equal levels of corruption have done considerably well than Pakistan economically because they have sorted out other problems like political instability, foreign policy and diplomacy, foreign investments. All these are directly related to Pakistani establishment’s interference in political and foreign affairs and I find no mention of it in the 11 points agenda from IK. How can there be Naya Pakistan without sorting it out. Only talking about corruption is fooling the nation
     
  21. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

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    no it isnt. political stability is way down the pecking order for national progress. corruption is easily the most important factor in holding the country back. we've had almost ten years of political stability which has led us to being closer to bankruptcy than at any other point in history, precisely because of corruption. lawmakers are being dismissed left right and centre not because of interference, but because they were unlawfully given their positions because of corruption.

    corruption is by far and away the most damaging factor for the country. and attempts to reprioritise it will only lead to a faster slide into oblivion and slavery to the debt holders like in the case of Greece.
     
  22. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

    Aug 7, 2010
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    How can you term it political stability amid Swissgate, memogate, dharnagate, panamagate, 2 PMs unable to complete their term? Foreign policy is driven by the army while every neighbor of Pakistan is pissed at them and no one in the world is by their side except China. No international companies are willing to invest in Pakistan, 21% of budget is guaranteed for defense while only 0.5% of Pakistanis pay taxes.
     
  23. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

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    how is political stability defined? since the beginning of the last government, its been an almost ten year run of an elected pm. memo gate, dharna gate, Panama gate happened because of corruption, they didnt happen because of political instability.

    foreign policy can be influenced by anyone, the military in the states influences their foreign policy amongst other stake holders, but the government makes the policy and is held accountable, the same is true here. they cant claim load shedding success o the one hand (falsely) and then say theyre not in control when it comes to foreign policy. terrorism began because of foreign appeasement and loss of sovereignty because of corruption, thats one of the reasons no one wants to invest in pakistan, others being corruption in the accounts of state institutions (as far backs the mid 90s when both India and pakistan began opening the doors to foreign capital markets, Pakistan lied, India didnt and courted further investment).

    debt is at astronomical levels, whereas productivity and the current account deficit has nosedived. thats due to corruption of appointment of incompetent officials - all of whom one by one are bing dismissed on account of their corruption - and that has probably placed the country in a noose that will take more than a decade to begin to work loose from.

    and I could go on.

    the problems are all by far and away due to corruption. its a total pipe dream with no academic justification to hold 'stability' whatever that means as the reason for failure. all it is is a convenient excuse for status quo parties - but as with almost everything they do policy wise, its built on lies and fabrications.

    how many failed states in the world were politically stable? do you want me to list them?
     
  24. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

    Aug 7, 2010
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    Memogate and Dharnagate were about corruption. Are you serious? How about Faizabadgate? who gave them authority within the constitution to handout cash? Where did that money come from? Why the dear leader does not like to talk about these things in his 11 points for Naya Pakistan? How can a country run effectively when there is state within a state? Why the Lal Masjid Khateeb after responsible for 100s of lives is roaming scot-free
     
  25. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

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    dear leader isnt in government. why dont you ask your dear leader who was, and appointed the new leader who is in power those questions? no comments about political instability when this supposed state within a state was helping sharif?

    the hypocrisy is disgusting.

    and since we are talking about faizabad - what happened to be beloved leader shahab's promise of an investigation into the cause of those protests and the proposed change that beloved leader tried to sneak into legislation? thats not corruption? on who's orders did that happen? was it coincidence that the usa was pulling its puppet strings at the time, and threatening to withdraw aid?
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
  26. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

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    I’m only critic of state within state and blind followers of dear leaders. I don’t follow any leader dearly. I agree Shareef’s are deservingly reaping their own crop and so will the dear leader one day unless they all unite and stop pulling each other legs
     
  27. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

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    glad to hear that. doesnt sound like it though from your comments, but thats your business.

    if ik becomes leader, yes he should be held to precisely the same standards as everyone else. not higher standards which seems to be the case most of the time when he is criticised. in addition, I think its high time to admit that the straw man argument of political stability is exposed and ejected as the poor excuse for justifying a status quo.

    its far more honest to admit that one disagrees with his policies, whether that be stamping out corruption and the lucrative livings it provides, or whether its a fear of a suppression of secularism, or fear of a suppression of minorities - all those arguments are rational and understandable if they are felt by someone who disagrees with pti policy.

    hiding those types of opinions behind political continuity does them a disservice.
     
  28. Del
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    Del Tracer Bullet

    Dec 21, 2016
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    @iho can I ask a rudimentary question?

    You have been emphasizing on political stability, can you elaborate what is "political stability"?

    Yes, some governments didn't complete their terms, but what are the accomplishments of Zardi and this Nawaz's government?

    Like to know your views about it.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
  29. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

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    Political stability is when PMs are not removed through courts but through parliament impeachment. When military is subservient to the civilian Govt. When govt decides whether to have good relations with India or Afghanistan. When governments are not wasting time on useless Dharnas and when govt is made fully accountable for good or bad. When the voters decide who to elect or reject. When non state actors are punished for their internal and external Shenanigans and when military dictators are hanged for breaking the constitution. All civilized democracies follow these rules and hence are stable and this allows trust in the country where foreign investors are willing to invest. No one likes to invest in a banana republic. Without foreign investments and improved exports how can any country flourish
     
  30. Del
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    Del Tracer Bullet

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    @iho

    Why on earth a parliament full of goon and crooks will take any such initiative?

    And how will you eradicate that fact that behind good relations with those two, sitting Gov has not personal agenda like the following?

    https://cricistan.com/threads/nab-orders-inquiry-into-nawaz-sharif’s-‘money-laundering-to-india’.46470/#post-1341491

    And sorry to say, do you even know what kind of game NDS and RAW are playing from Afghan soil?

    Do you believe that Nawaz and Zardi will let it get materialized? This shameless gunza is trying to level best to revert his disqualification and make changes in article (62)(1) and you expect his to make and enforce law to hold sitting Gov accountable?

    I dont know bro which world do you live in. Doesn't matter you go polling station or not your vote will go towards the party who wins.

    Let me share a personal experience. In last 2015 election, my father went to polling station, he wanted to vote for PTI, but MQM's thugs said, uncle no need to wait here and waste time, we know you will vote to MQM, go home and we will do it for you.

    And you believe in this rotten system, voters have a say?
     
  31. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

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    Every parliament or Congress in the world will support their party when in government else Donald Trump would have been impeached by now or George W Bush wouldn't have sustained 8 years as president. Whether you call them goons or crooks they will still be goons and crooks when PTI comes into power with the help of those electables in their party. Either you believe in the system or you don't. Hoping that the same parliamentary system will miraculously improve once PTI is in power is naive. Point is that in any democratic system its the parliament or congress who has to decide whether the leader is worthy of the highest executive role and its the public who has to decide if they need a particular party in power or not. But then if you dont believe in the system then you should not hope that PTI coming into power can improve that system by a magic wand particularly when they did nothing to show during the past 5 years in whether they were even interested in the parliamentary process.


    In Pakistan even a 5 year old will confirm that the flopped foreign policy is handled by the Pakistan Army. Nothing to debate about it.


    Same question - Either you believe in the system or you don't. If you dont believe in the system its better we have the military or judicial form of govt so that at least there will be one captain and one party accountable for good or bad and that is what I refer to as Political stability.
     
  32. Del
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    Del Tracer Bullet

    Dec 21, 2016
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    @iho

    You cant compare election process of Pakistan with USA or ENG, its comical to compare these two systems. And thats why millions dont even go to vote, because they dont believe in the system, thanks for thugs like Nawaz and Zardari.

    You said that public decide if they need a particular party in power or not, do you really believe that people of Sindh want PPP? seriously? Bhai this is not how things work in Pakistan.

    Yes, even if PTI comes in power, these goons will still be part of the parliament, but at least if IK becomes PM, then your prime minster wouldnt be a corrupt person. Which could make an impact, unless if you have Nawaz or Zardari - this is the whole point.
     
  33. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

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    We are putting all our eggs in one basket and acting like Ostrich ignoring the real problems that has prevented us from progressing. Blaming Nawaz and Zardari on all the problems is silly but it seems this is what many like to believe. I really hope IK makes as the next PM but without us addressing the real problems and only rapping about the corruption that happened 2 decades ago is not going to resolve anything.
     
  34. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

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    this definitions of political stability is total rubbish. its like saying "a country cannot flourish if my chosen government is not allowed to practice unhindered". its entirely a list of events that would allow the status quo to persist - no justification, no facts, no support, its just a poorly constructed opinion.

    according to the report that iho quoted in this thread (and which he subsequently didnt respond to when I demonstrated that it proves beyond any measure that corruption is a far greater a factor than stability), on page 51 it defines political stability:

    "Po- litical instability has been measured by the number of successful coups, the number of people killed in do- mestic mass violence incidents as a fraction of the total population, the number of attempted but unsuccessful coups, or the number of politically motivated assassi- nations (Alesina & Perotti, 1996)"

    which defines pakistan as entirely, unmitigatingly, undeniably and absolutely STABLE over the past ten years.

    1) so none of the dharnas, or judicial enquiries have had anything to do with retarding progress
    2) no, not all successful democracies have followed the paths suggested, and certainly not the third world ones
    3) successful democracies do not necessarily correlate with progress, poverty alleviation, equation, literacy etc

    the reason there has been no foreign investment into Pakistan is because the Pakistani STABLE governments have been entirely corrupt, are untrustworthy for foreign investment, security instability due to government corruption in acceding to foreign power demands, and because economically they are on the precipice of bankruptcy, due to incompetence of officials posted due to corruption.

    no one is investing in greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Poland - all successful democracies according to iho's made up definition of stability - why has there been such poor foreign investment in the last ten years? certainly not because of political instability - even by his own made up definitions.

    so to say that political instability causes lack of foreign investment im afraid is just not true, and is a lie - its simply poorly thought out desperation being presented as fact.
     
  35. Del
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    Del Tracer Bullet

    Dec 21, 2016
    5,592
    I agree that corruption is not the only problem, but its the biggest issue and God fathers of corruption are the two said culprits. And I dont know from where you got "corruption that happened 2 decades ago is not going to resolve anything" - bhai sahab, do some research and you'll come to know how much money is leaking every single day. Ayyan ali didnt do currency smuggling for Zardari 2 decades ago, and there have been other models too, as per some sources. Similarly, there was a guy caught who can taking massive amount of Gold and Cash out of the country, and latter it was revealed that he was working for PML-N.When FIA and ASF works under Federal Gov then what else do you except? How they can stop such acts?

    Like as I said before, I'll reiterate myself, if your leader is a cheater then people who work under him become very comfortable, and get free licence of looting, at least in my book.
     
  36. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
    1,275
    there was a scandal just yesterday about the billions of rupees lost to UAE sheikhs because of corruption in the government, the infrastructure projects, CPEC, tax amnesties - the list is endless and is every single day. two decades old corruption is still being felt today, but everything since then has piled into a mountain above that.

    it is sad when facts do not inform an argument, it makes a discussion impossible.
     
  37. Del
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    Del Tracer Bullet

    Dec 21, 2016
    5,592
    Indeed, thats my point, people thing corruption happened 20 years ago, which is just started to come to fore. It doesn't mean it isn't happening today. I cant even imagine how much happens as of this minute.
     
  38. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

    Aug 7, 2010
    4,104
    Had there been any NS or his cabinet level mega corruption then Baba Rehmata would have already been raising them with Suo Moto or someone from PTI would have filed a petition in Supreme Court. The fact that there was no major scandal during past 5 years I will not speculate or make a big deal out of it. In these times when media is so active any mega corruption would have been the topic of all the TV daily talk shows but all we have heard during past 5 years is dharna, election dhandli, panamagate etc.
     
  39. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
    1,275
    you are aware of Panamagate is aren't you? and in terms of hearing about petitions and protests, are yo aware of what the purpose of the dharnas were? there has been nothing but protest at mega corruption for at least five years, im not sure how you have missed this.
     
  40. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

    Aug 7, 2010
    4,104
    I think you are jumping in between without the context. My response was for any mega corruption scandal reported during past 5 years. Panamagate is from 1990s which is money laundering allegation from some two decades back
     

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