Predict the next Pakistani Politician/Leader in Jail

Discussion in 'The Pavilion' started by Passionate Pakistani, Dec 19, 2018.

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  1. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

    Dec 17, 2009
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    For the balancing act, NAB will kick some govt ministers ass aswell. There are many corrupt individuals within govt., one of them will surely be caught.
     
  2. Passionate Pakistani
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    Passionate Pakistani The Don

    Jun 10, 2011
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    Punjab minister is arrested by NAB yesterday

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  3. Mohammed Bilal
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    Mohammed Bilal Tracer Bullet

    Jul 17, 2017
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  4. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

    Dec 17, 2009
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    tucchay nahi, baray haathi. pervaiz khattak and co.
     
  5. Mohsin
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    Mohsin Cornered Tiger

    Feb 21, 2010
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    My chirya says Maulana Fazlu will be leading Nawaz and Zardari in Imamat very soon...
     
  6. Mars
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    Mars Talented

    Apr 23, 2012
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    Corruption and NAB is basically the new guillotine.

    Hard pill to swallow but that is how it is.
     
  7. Passionate Pakistani
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    Passionate Pakistani The Don

    Jun 10, 2011
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    Rana saab the latest to bites the dust

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  8. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

    May 12, 2016
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    There are rumours going around that Zardari has offered about USD 10bn for exile and that the government is considering it. also very credible rumours that through various shell companies, shabaz is trying to sell about GBP 2bn of properties in London, which is why he was here for month, fit as a fiddle, pretending to have health checks.
     
  9. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

    Dec 17, 2009
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    The amount/numbers being floated here is definitely fake. They want to give money, but the amounts are exaggerated.
    Zardari in a recent interview to hamid mir confirmed he wants to talk to the state, not imran. regarding 'helping' the economy.
    he laughed off at the amount being suggested is $7 billion.
     
  10. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

    May 12, 2016
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    I think you are probably correct here. although its also probably true that they are not going to public with the amounts of money.

    I thought it was very negative stance by Imran to suggest he would take a settlement, particularly after saying for so long that he wouldn't sign an NRO. a settlement is not an NRO, but it indicates that they were were wrong about clawing back stolen wealth stashed abroad, and also whatever the accurate statement of what the nature of the agreement would be, certainly his supporters have been under the impression these people will serve the time they deserve, not be able to live a lavish life after paying some money.
     
  11. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

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    the establishment is bargaining by projecting imran as being rigid and a hurdle in NRO.
     
  12. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

    May 12, 2016
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    I don't believe the establishment has anywhere near the degree of influence you keep stating they have. there is no evidence whatsoever for it.
     
  13. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

    Dec 17, 2009
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    You just need to look in the right direction. I am not against Imran, I am not a fan of Zardaris and Sharifs either and I don't think that they are not corrupt and didn't loot the country. But it is coming out aloud now that the kind of blame being put on the politicians for messing up Pakistan is a bit exxagerated. You would agree that India and Bangladesh are as corrupt as Pakistan if not more but they are not in such mess as ours in terms of economy, growth and international perception. It is because the policy making was still in the right hands. Our policy making was mostly in the hands of Miltablishment and no matter how mohib e estan they must be, they are not capable of doing all this.
     
  14. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

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    His arrest is most comical one. Finding drugs in his car. It reminds me of the war ammunition being found inside nine zero few years back. It all falls into place now.
     
  15. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

    May 12, 2016
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    no. I wouldnt agree that certainly india is as corrupt as Pakistan has been in the past thirty years or so, and neither would International independent corruption indices.

    policy doesnt mean much on its own, money does. the previous governments put their money interests ahead of the country and have sold its sovereignty. the most successful imperialist expansion policy over the past hundred years has been economic infiltration, and these people have allowed that.

    its just my opinion, which I could back up with reams of research if I had the time, but most people not sufficiently familiar with economics grossly underestimate the massive damage and vulnerability that goes with massive indebtedness combined with a policy absent destruction of export industry.

    I think the blame is necessary on the opposition parties, to avoid a reversion back to banana republic status and to avoid the sinking of Pakistan into another African vassal state, or a failed Zimbabwe or Greece, there has to be a definite and undeniable disincentive for the kinds of self interest that have occurred over the past thirty years. in truth these people have brought it upon themselves. the difference between them and goray is not that the goray are not corrupt, but its that they are smart about it and take enough that it is not noticed and not debilitating to their society in general.

    I know how much money they have stashed in the UK, I know how they are trying to liquidate it all. it would resolve the austerity if it were repartriated, but not only will they deny ownership and not return the money, they are trying with the help of paksitans enemies to destabilise what is an attempted corrective measure by what it is essentially a poorly skilled government which is also a billion times superior to its alternatives.
     
  16. Mars
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    Mars Talented

    Apr 23, 2012
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    An audit of the NAB which was presented in Parliament showed that the highest percentage of corruption was done by Mil. Personnels then judges and then politicians.

    Civilians have never ruled this country. Half of our country's history is filled with Dictatorship and the other half is indirectly influenced by the same people. If people still can't see it then there's nothing else which can make them see the reality.
     
  17. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

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    link?
     
  18. Mars
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    Mars Talented

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    The audit I'm referring to was back in the PPP Mush era so I'm not sure if there's a link around (and I would be surprised if such a link was still afloat)
    However, journalists and a few politicians have referred to it in few instances.

    Regardless of this; just try to explain to me on how Kiyani has purchased an Island in Australia worth billions?

    Ps. I know this makes my argument weak because I can't back it up with proper evidence but I do not really find any use of trying to win arguments now. I've seen enough evidence myself for me to have complete conviction that I don't care about any party now. As long as they are anti establishment, I stand with them.


    I have a book that is banned in Pakistan which I could share with you, if you are genuinely interested in learning more about the real corruption in Pakistan.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  19. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

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    im aware of a single book that was written by an anti-army lady, I've heard mixed things about it - the pro army people say its rubbish, the anti army people say it proves everything. I dont know what to make of it, and dont know if its the book you are referring to, I haven't read it myself, but its not very encouraging as evidence to have one book as the sole evidential source, particularly when there clearly are biases one way and the other.

    I respect your point of view of not wanting to argue, and I think its very sensible in general for whatever thats worth - I feel the same way in most cases, its pointless. and I agree that at the end of the day as long as you are convicted in your opinion based on genuine evidence that you are aware of, it doesnt really matter what anyone else thinks.

    ive heard reference to this island, but im not sure if anyone has a proper rather than media sensationalist sense of value. and even if you are correct about the value, its still pales into insignificance in comparison to the previous civilian regimes and their crimes. but I suspect you are referring to it as a single example rather than as representative of the entirety of army corruption. I dont know enough about it to comment further.

    for whatever its worth, friends of mine who have family in the army tell me that there is corruption, but it is far less than the critics seem to suggest. from my own point of view of logic, I think these things are a given in any society.

    in terms of my own focus, ignoring the civilian government in preference of attacking the army I think will almost definitely lead to a collapsed state and a disaster for everyone, partly because of the military hostility of neighbours, partly because the military is so large that it will be an extremely difficult fight to win, but mostly because an unfettered civilian government will definitely lead to greece/zimbabwe/egypt = failed banana republic, owned by western economic hitmen - there's virtually no doubt about that, and tonnes and tonnes of precedent around the globe.

    alternatively, a focus on the civilian government allows for the possibility of a stay of execution from the point of view of a failed state, whilst the cost is relatively marginal corruption from the army. this I would imagine is also the optimal way to attack corruption in the army. in my opinion the only way to do it would be via a strong and stable civilian government empowering a middle class in order to garner support which would need economic stability and self sufficiency. the reason we are not in that position is because the sheer scale of corruption at the civilian governmental level is so enormous that the country is on the precipice of becoming a failed state. in that condition, there is nothing you can do to the army at all.
     
  20. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

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    I do not disagree with you on that then you also have pointed out the problem, the military is now so strong they are the state. The point is that for a state as big as pakistan, the power needs to be shared.

    Whats happening right now is nothing that has not happened before. asif zardari has been jailed before, so is nawaz sharif. but the problem is by giving them the option to flee last time, and then letting them come back, they have compromised the justice system and the perception.
    The scenario was created such that the people were made to believe that the justice system is now free, it is not. The same previous strategy is being used, so no one believes what is happening is accountability, except for probably imran khan.
     
  21. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

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    ^further to above

    These are the kind of mistakes that the state does. they ridicule the system and then expect everyone to believe it. they can only fool themselves, everyone else outside knows what is happening. The establishment must accept their mistakes, and come out clean by stop interfering with the justice system. get these bastards a fair trial, make them real prisoners and not fancy house arrests, and then see how things will really start to change. but the problem is that, once the real trial start, it will also lead to several ex-generals and colonels being exposed. And those guys are made holy cows, why because State khatray mein par jata hai, just like jamhooriat khatray mein par jati hai.
     
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  22. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

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    thats a fair opinion but i dont entirely agree. a strong military does not necessarily equate to the state. Egypt is an example: in the modern day for an army to take total control, they can no longer do it behind the scenes: with the scrutiny of modern forms of media - thats what has changed. theres too much that everyone knows so that you cant hide the tell tale signs. things like the army handing out a few rupees at a demonstration are not signs of wide scale corruption, they are signs of limited influence.

    my best GUESS (its only a guess) is that the army are smart enough to want to protect what they have accumulated (whether rightfully or wrongfully), without bringing light of suspicion on to themselves which I would imagine means a very limited influence in politics. probably some influence on marginal seats, exactly like special interest lobbies work in developed mature democracies in the west.

    anyway, all im trying to say is that from what I can see, the influence of the army is heavily overstated in terms of its interference and control of politics. I also think that a focus on that is not only erroneous, it is futile and furthermore distracts from what we can control - and the only means of holding the army to account - the civilian government.

    I think its a very interesting point you make on justice, and the misplaced belief in it being clean in the country. my gut tells me I agree with you, although again, there are subtle differences. the modern day in contrast to the past does allow for things like Panama to come to light, and all the associated investigations and open sharing of selected data from foreign governments looking to cull tax evasion. that said, there is plenty of scope for corruption, still in these self declared bastions of modern dat freedom and justice.

    the following is an excellent article about how the UK for example still allows for massive fraud and money laundering (and describes the way in which the sharifs have done it as it happens, though its not about them): https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...away-with-stealing-millions-a-five-step-guide

    So yes, although the justice system is still probably broken, again there is more explicit data available that is undeniable as compared to the past, and so although this is not a black and white change, we are living in a darker grey environment, and so it remains to be seen whether justice can be undone or perverted as easily as it was in the past - I would imagine it can be, but nowhere near as easily.

    that said, I do 100% agree that it will be extremely negative for the present government to let these guys go for a settlement like last time. I can understand why they will do it - the UK wont co-operate in order to return stolen wealth because if they do, all the crooks who have stashed billions there will remove it which will tip them over the economic edge given the mess that is Brexit. and so there is likely no other way for the Pakistani government to get any of that money back. but if the whole premise of the PTI is justice, this will be a betrayal of that.

    so in conclusion to this overly long reply, I agree mostly with you but think there are some significant but subtle differences from the past, which give us some hope, albeit small, that things may change for the better. whether thats true or not, time will tell, but its the only hope the country has, the alternative is total collapse and loss of sovereignty.
     
  23. Mars
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    Mars Talented

    Apr 23, 2012
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    A civilian government can only work when the army is impartial and has nothing to do with economic policies as well as influence in corporations/institutions.

    What you are saying is a pipe dream considering we've been trying the same route to success since the time of Ayub.
    What we need to work on is to de-economize and de politicize (if that is a word) the army otherwise the country is heading to a disaster either leading to a Civil War or complete economic crisis.

    We haven't had a single PM who completed his tenure without being disqualified/couped. Why do you think the case is any different now?
     
  24. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

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    When has there been an accountable civilian government that has acted on behalf of the public and not amassed massive wealth at the cost to the population?

    Where do you get this principle that a civilian government cannot work with army influence? Which country on the face of the planet has a civilian government that is not influenced by their army. It will vary in terms of degree of influence, but why do claim that the influence of the army is the cause of civilian failure (and NOT corruption), rather than being a symptom of a failed civilian government?

    I think those questions outline the crux of where we differ.

    I could quote multiple examples of failed states where armies were not high influencers, successful states where armies were heavy influencers, I don’t know where you draw conviction in the absolute nature of this principle - I believe it is utterly without any basis whatsoever.
     
  25. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

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    godzilla

    iZaman is right. We have seen this supposed momin partnership previously where we have a naik and sharif PM who keeps running regular affairs of the country and the generals do the rest. Read up on Junejo. Bogra etc. It doesn't last long.

    The true power must be given to the people. Only that will change our destiny. This dream of military leadership will lead to ghazwa e hind and medina ki riyasat, it's not going to work.
     
  26. Mars
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    Mars Talented

    Apr 23, 2012
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    I agree that there are degrees of influence. Some are acceptable and some are not.

    What is not acceptable is an influence in the decisions that are being made in Parliament thereby influencing and sometimes bypassing the democratic process of the country.

    Either we should declare ourselves as a theocratic state where one ruler is responsible for the decline and rise of a country or we should adopt a completely democratic system where every decision is made in parliament. Especially decisions related to economic policies. Ishaq Dars biggest mistake was trying to control the Defense Budget and asking questions on where the money was being spent.

    Half cooked democracy will only result in chaos and economic and political uncertainty.

    As far as corruption is concerned, let me state it clearly to you: I do not believe corruption is our biggest problem.

    You think there's any less corruption in western world? You simply can't remove corruption. Corruption is just a name for the new guillotine that has been built to topple governments and take revenge from people who you dislike.

    Corruption and Terrorism are two words in the present century which are 'used' to manipulate the system and citizens into believing that they are following justice.

    IK has supposedly got a team which is corruption less. Let us assume, they're all not corrupt? What's the use of it? They've been failing horribly to achieve simple economic targets instead of gaining any momentum.
    Our problem is 'incapable people' who have no idea what to do. Even Asad Umar, the supposed expert in economics, froze when he got control of the elephant - Government Economy. He was simply incapable of dealing with the magnitude of the issues he had to face (his interviews during the ministry are evidence of this.. The guy was working 18 hours yet failed to do anything of note)

    Incapable people at positions where they have nothing to do is the real problem. Army is incapable of handling the government, Imran doesn't know how to govern, PTI is only capable of Dharna and blame game and the judges have nothing to do with the democratic system of the country.
    Everywhere, the problem is the same - incapable people at the wrong positions. When you let capable people work at the top, you'll slowly but in a stable environment work forward to remove corruption from the system based on merit based selections.
    Corruption is a result of the incapablity cycle where one incapable person comes into power through money and then to get his return of the investment he made, turns to further corruption.


    Who brought them there? Why can't capable people come forward? Is there any dearth of capable people in Pakistan? Who doesn't let the capable people rise? I think you know the answer.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  27. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

    May 12, 2016
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    There is so much fundamentally wrong with that post that it will take an effort to unpack it. I honestly think it’s is absolutely preposterous to suggest that corruption is a scape goat and that should be perfectly allowable because it happens in the west.

    Most western countries are not on the precipice of bankruptcy.

    Dar’s biggest failing was the defence budget? Are you serious? His construction of the money laundering process is not a catch phrase to punish - its a reality. Forgive me for saying it but I don’t think you have the slightest idea of what economics is, how severely precarious Pakistan’s position is and how it got there.

    Unfortunately I’m travelling and only have my phone so can’t add more now.
     
  28. Mars
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    Mars Talented

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    Dar didn't do anything which hadn't been done before. That is my point. Hafeez Sheikh had his own failings during the PPP tenure but he's the Finance Minister right now, why?
    As far as the policy of PMLn is concerned, it was based on the idea that investments will come in due time and the difference between the actual price of dollar and rupees will slowly reduce within due time. And, mind you, they were not doing bad. They did payback 35b loans as well and were significantly closing down the deficit.

    The policy of free floating the economy is going to hurt Pakistan far than any money laundering schemes that Dar built.
     
  29. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

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    i am not an economy expert, but from what i have understood is that they want to get to the real value of rupee against dollar, because dar's policy of fake value being set would not have been manageable anyway, so it was a short term plan not long term plan, as the are doing now.
    it is going to get stable, and will probably lower. whatever it will be, it would be the real value. it may hurt the importers for the time being, they have stopped importing right now.

    Regarding your comment of PMLn doing well. for a nobody like me who lives and have grown up in pakistan, it was really sad to see that from needle to cars we were importing everything. the markets were full of imported goods even garments being sold in the local market was full of thai and chinese products. thats just plain bad for a country like pakistan. local manufacturing had come to a stand still and only one business was booming, Real estate. how are you going to sustain this economic model when people are going to sell their agricultural or manufacturing lands for housing schemes, apartments and shopping malls. the money would end up outside pakistan via the importers.
    now i am forced to buy fauji corn flakes rather than the imported flakes.
     
  30. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

    May 12, 2016
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    this factually incorrect througout.

    the damage of the free float is because of previous policy. specifically and directly a result of it. the currency markets work in large part directly on the health of an economy. economies tend to run on seven or eight year cycles so what we see today is absolutely and categorically not the result of the past year, but of policies over the past decade or so. dar decimated exports, and used foreign debt to finance political currency so they could continue bleeding the country for their own personal family empires.

    its is absolutely and utterly incorrect to say that devaluation will be worse than any corruption, or that they were closing the deficit. they are not competing strategies, devaluation is because of previous policy. in addition, the devaluation is not new to this government, it was always there and specifically because of dar's incompetence and corruption, they just hid it by wasting the tax payers by propping up the rupee.

    paying back 35bn? honestly, this is just dishonest. what difference does that make? it is net debt that matters, and you are easily intelligent enough to know that, so I cant understand why you would quote one side of the ledger. we all know what they did with net debt, the current account deficit and the fiscal deficit. we also know how many of the previous governments are either convicted, incarcerated or under investigation for corruption. the evidence is just so gargantuan, and utterly overwhelming that I'm afraid no one can have their heads buried in the sand that deeply.

    Hafeez sheikh is back, so what? are you saying that he was incapable? how do you know that it was his capability and not his utilisation that was the problem? is he an absconder that the courts are looking to question because of his gross negligence and suspected criminal support of corruption? whatever he is, whether good or whether bad, whether he was a pre-condition of an IMF bailout or not, there is absolutely no comparison with him and dar.

    none of your post makes any sense whatsoever - very disappointing.
     
  31. Mars
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    Mars Talented

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    The idea that free floating the rupees would fix the industries automatically is laughable to say the least. Any shift in economic policies has to go under a sustainable model without hurting the common man to the extent that economy flops.

    Pakistan did control the currency artificially and has been doing so since decades and our industry was supported by these policies but things were growing and the damage was being controlled by the amount of investment which was being put in by investors. Any economy that grows is based on
    1. Economic policies and 2. Sentiments of the investor

    NS and his party had managed to get the trust of investors in Pakistan which had never been the case during the previous governments. Despite the PTI dharnas and attempts to create chaos, PMLn managed to provide consistency in their policies resulting in immense trust between the government and the investors. I do believe that the over valuation should've been dealt with earlier but Dar proposedly overvalued the currency once he realized that the establishment won't let them off the hook and did his best to get the best possible performance in five years and not to take any credit away, in 2018, Pakistan was being considered for the Asian leaders in the future. (the policy was indeed short term)

    However, what PTI has done is complete handover to the IMF and zero analysis on how they're going to overcome the deficit without collapsing the economy.
    Essentially, we're heading to a complete collapse of the system. You don't deal with cancer by killing the patient! Free floating directly from a highly controlled economy (which had been our default policy) is basically a euphemism for collapsing the country and killing the common man. It is exactly what happened in Malaysia and recently in Egypt.
    I don't think you are living in Pakistan right now but the magnitude of the inflation that has hit the citizens is HUGE.
    For things to develop, you need a building. If you demolish the building, there's no use of your ideas and architecture. PTI is bulldozing a house just because it was not according to textbook architecture.

    I'd prefer to live in a poorly built house being run by theifs instead of a desert with honest and intelligent architects. Look at the ground realities and then try to understand how big of a blunder this free floating is. The government is killing established industries because it wants to create new local industries. The idea is great but what happens between this time period?
     
  32. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

    May 12, 2016
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    apologies brother, but you have no idea about economics. everything you've stated again its standard PML-N rhetoric written for laypeople, it has no basis on factual economics or the wealth of statistical facts on the state of the economy that are available. you are categorically wrong about the reasons that foreign investment arrives in a country and whether that is good or bad.

    who has said that a free floating rupee will fix all industries? do yo realise that the country does not have the luxury to throw money at the common man because it was on the precipice of total collapse?

    had they not devalued, the country would have gone bankrupt. its clear that you don't understand what that means, or how severe that is for the public. the present inflation crisis is a walk in the park in comparison.

    the house was already ablaze and burning. the only reason people didn't known it is because the guys who set it on fire are holding shiny bits of costume jewellery in the window to distract the ignorant public, so that they could sell bits of the furniture and the copper wiring on the black market to build their own houses. to further your own analogy, a new government has come in and has had to drench everything with water in order to save the place, otherwise it would have burned down, and now people are complaining about the water damage, completely oblivious to how much worse it would have been.

    I predicted probably two years ago on these boards that you would see either greece, egypt, turkey or Zimbabwe happening here in pakistan and that is exactly what has happened - not because I have any particular insight, anyone with a knowledge of the sate of the economy would have predicted the same. the risk is that it would have been Zimbabwe. but people with no intelligence of just how bad things are or could have been wont believe it. there is a part of me that does hope that the PTI government is de-seated and then I'll sit back and see what happens to people like you in the next ten or twenty years. its what the people of pakistan deserve really, after continually supporting these people. there's a part of me that wants to see the logical conclusion, so I can say I told you so when the whole place burns down.

    If you have any genuine interest on what is happening, and why these policies were absolutely unavoidable, there is plenty of reading of case studies on what is happening. if you have a genuine interest in what was going on and how it would have led to utter disaster, read the books on economic hitmen for real life case studies on what the policies you are advocating would have led to.

    nothing more from me on this, we're going round in circles and its clear you dont have any interest in quoting any sources for the things you keep stating as fact.
     
  33. Mars
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    Mars Talented

    Apr 23, 2012
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    There are plenty of articles by economic experts which explain what I'm trying to explain but I guess you have been sold the PTI agenda to the extent that you do not want to go beyond the rhetoric of corruption. A controlled economy is the need of the time or the actual economic hitmen will soon turn Pakistan into Egypt.

    I think we should both keep it civil and agree to revise our opinions after another year of these textbook policies.
     
  34. Mars
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    Mars Talented

    Apr 23, 2012
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    Besides, had the government not gone to the Imf, I would've completely agreed with you but right now, we've not only gone to Imf but also made the life of a common man miserable.
     
  35. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    Amazing logic.

    Current Gov shouldn't have gone to IMF, cuz it made common man miserable. Well, do we have enough money to run the country had this Gov didnt go to IMF? When new Gov came at helm, financial deficit was already through the roof, who's fault is it?

    Why this financial deficit has become sky high since 2010? Who's answerable for this?
     
  36. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

    May 12, 2016
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    please do quote them. ive already asked for links from your before in this thread, which you declined to offer, so now you're offering again, please do provide them.
     
  37. Pakistanalltheway
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    Pakistanalltheway Smooth Operator

    Jul 16, 2012
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    Last few posts have made for good reading, thanks for the insight.
     
  38. Mars
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    Mars Talented

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    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  39. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    LOL, dawn leaks once again. No wonder all those who read Dawn possess same mindset and point of view.
     
  40. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

    May 12, 2016
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    WOW.

    did you even read these two articles? notwithstanding the fact that they are written by a retired Pakistani economist, and even then one who writes for the two most pro PMLN papers, virtually every point he makes apart from he opening paragraph in the first article about adopting two of three measures, contradicts everything you have been saying.

    he suggests things which are already being done, he makes tangential claims, like Ecuador debt restructuring as though its like picking fruit, then says one of the benefits of getting on the IMF programme is that debt restructuring negotiating can begin. in the first article he refers to odious debt only by way of example of the muisharraf regime which he also describes as odious, then goes on to say in the second article, where he fails to identify where the odious debts were initiated, that they are also defined as debts beyond a debt threshold. well if they are odious debts, its the PMLN government that initiated them by definition, and if the PMLN did not, his whole thesis about odour debt is invalid.

    its basically a mixture of speculation, stating the obvious, and poorly written English with one common theme, that it virtually entirely disproves your claims. there's nothing out of the ox about it at all.

    do you even understand what he's saying?
     

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