The Coach Debate

Discussion in 'Cricket Talk' started by Disco Lemonade, Feb 9, 2010.

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  1. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

    Dec 17, 2009
    5,848
    Rumours of Greg Chappel going around..

    As much as i would like a tough, straight to the point coach, i believe he wont last long in this setup. Our players, regardless of they are seniors or not dont want to come out of their comfort zone. Every individual player have made their own criteria of staying in the team. Some base it on their past records, some base it on sifarish and very few base it on current form and performance. A coach like Greg Chappal will be removed or either resign in few month/tours..

    I now realise how good a coach was Woolmer for 'Us', he stayed quite a few years as a coach and that is some achievement. RIP Woolmer.
     
  2. HashiBaba
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    HashiBaba Talented

    Dec 24, 2009
    1,693
    What we need is for the PCB to appoint a hard task master who will make the players work their absolute socks off, give them not even a hairs width of leeway and to not take any political bull potty from them.

    What we also need is for the PCB to say to the players that no matter what happens or what you say, this man is remaining the coach for the next 3 years. No matter how many complaints you have about having to wake up at 6 and go for a jog, or having to catch that ball in practice which hurt your hand or having to stop eating parathas and nehari every single day.

    We need a hard task master but we need him to be supported by the PCB and we need him to stay for 3 years....we need a complete overhaul of the teams culture.

    In an ideal world I would like to see......

    Head Coach: Greg Chappel
    Assistant Coach: Ijaz Ahmed
    Fielding Coach: Julien Fountain
     
  3. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
    16,689
    Now that South Africa's coach is available, I'd like to see him given a chance. I think he's the same guy that got Afridi performing regularly with bat and ball in South African domestic cricket and if he can achieve that then anything is possible.

    Isn't Chappel the same guy that gave the finger to Indian fans? I'm not sure that's the sort of guy we want to be welcoming into the role. Sure we want a tough coach but not someone who's as stuck up as that.
     
  4. zeenix
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    zeenix Administrator

    Dec 17, 2009
    5,471
    To be honest, nothing is going to work until PCB gives that Finger to the players and discipline them. I mean just look at this we are pathetic at every department of the game excluding probably bowling. I have maintained that as a short term measure, we either need a no nonsense captain with all the powers (which unfortunately we don't have any available right now) or a fully powerful coach backed by the PCB. If we have to kick the butts of a few seniors to get this discipline thing going then be it.

    The thing is that we are replete with talent. It isn't as if there is a crisis in talent. If we have a determined PCB with a dedicated group of selectors who actually watch domestic matches, then we can build three teams let alone one. Nobody in this squad is actually indispensable. Although Chappel didn't get along well with the Indians, however it was his policy of inducting the youngsters and getting under the skin of the seniors that India is profiting now.

    We have always been successful when the team consists of youngsters who go the extra yard to establish their place in the team. We have always been screwed when we have a number of potential captaincy candidates the so called seniors who have their own vile interests.

    This is what made Imran so successful. He never let anyone gain the superstar status and got the results he wanted.
     
  5. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
    16,689
    I'm in total agreement with everything you've said Zeenix.

    Our real problem is that Imran was pretty much a one-off not just in Pakistan but in cricket as a whole. There's no other cricketer who (as captain) averaged 52 with the bat and 20 with the ball and got results for his country.

    Imran performed on the field and knew how to play the politics off the field too, others like Younis Khan and Wasim Akram have tried to copy Imran but failed. Wasim wasn't the biggest star in the team in the early 90s and Younis couldnt play the politics off the pitch or even within the team.
     
  6. zeenix
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    zeenix Administrator

    Dec 17, 2009
    5,471
    This is why PCB backing is needed. Imran didn't require the support of PCB or the then BCCP because he by sheer quality of his character, performance and charisma could afford to even take on the cricket board and yet be successful. However since we don't have that opportunity now, its more important that the Board throws its weight behind the captain and the coach, and for a change have faith in them. We start afresh after every world cup debacle making tall claims for the next world cup (conveniently forgetting that there is a shitload of cricket to be played in between the world cups) and yet bynthe time the next world cup comes we are in more deeper $hit.

    Deep divisions and politics in our team is nothing secret. Yet no official comes up during his tenure and speaks about it. But when they are no more part of the setup, they start shouting about it. Why don't they for a change take action against those who are detrimental to the cause of the team. I never supported Shoaib Akhtar because he considered himself above the team discipline. The likes of Akmal and Malik belong to the same category. Once they make an example of someone then only can be expect the others to obey authority.
     
  7. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
    16,689
    The problem is that we never allow a coach or captain to settle into the spot, a few bad series and we chop both their heads off.

    Woolmer and Inzi were given around 3 years and look what they achieved with one of the weakest (bowling wise) Pakistan teams in history. The PCB seems to think that changing the coach or captain but not the nucleus of the team will change Pakistan's fortunes overnight.

    They dont have the patience for picking a young captain and sticking with him through the early problems. Look at Smith and the way the SA board stuck with him.
     
  8. zeenix
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    zeenix Administrator

    Dec 17, 2009
    5,471
    And well this attitude of the Board is due to the fact that there isn't a system in place. Where else in the world does a Board head gets axed for the team performance. Unfortunately in our country, a series or two and the PCB chairman is under pressure. So he convienently sucks up to the senior guys to ensure his own position isn't threatened.

    Until we have a chairman who is not afraid of his position being lost because of the team's performance, we would continue to go through the same cycle again and again.
     
  9. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

    Dec 17, 2009
    5,848
    well dont think the butts and baris and altafs are going anywhere right now...

    Lawson says he can return, he may well. i think he wont be perfect but he will do a good job. can make strategies for afridi and work on our fielding, and can work with our youngsters. dont think he will get into team politics too much..
     
  10. zeenix
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    zeenix Administrator

    Dec 17, 2009
    5,471
    between greg has turned down the offer. says he is flattered and honored but says he'd never coach again and is quite happy with his current job
     
  11. Big Daddy
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    Big Daddy Emerging Player

    Dec 21, 2009
    638
    Pakistan team should not have let lawson go when they did. They should have resourced him to the academy where he could impart the high coaching to youngsters where technique over form is a premise. But that would just make too much sense for the house of PCB to realize given that they are still debating whether dolphins and man can coexist.

    Ideally we need a foreign coach for our academies who can further train coaches and short list talent to nurture without the baggage that is cast within our spectrum of bias. And then act as a strategy consultant with our senior team when they go on tour. This is how the order should be. But aah well.
     
  12. Omar
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    Omar Cricistan Moderator

    Jan 27, 2010
    25,682
    I would like to see Micky Arthur if he is willing to come and coach Pakistan and Julien Fountain as the fielding coach and perhaps Zaheer Abbas as a batting coach or even Mohsin Khan as batting coach.
     
  13. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
    16,689
    I'm not sure about Julien as fielding coach, he's worked with Pakistan a few times in the past and seems to be a bit like Richard Pybus. They both seem the sort of guys who only get hired by international teams like Pakistan where they get an easy ride because the players dont want to do any real fitness work.

    We need the sort of coach who will make players stick to their exercise regimes or report them to the relevant authorities if they ignore his schedules. I think the days of Pakistan cricket being a gravy train for the likes of Pybus and Fountain should be over.

    I'd rather hire a competent local fielding coach like Ijaz Ahmed than pay over the odds for a 'foreign coach' just because he's foreign. Pakistan shouldn't be the first stop for coaches whom nobody else wants to hire!!
     
  14. zeenix
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    zeenix Administrator

    Dec 17, 2009
    5,471
    Totally agree with you. However one of the rationale behind hiring foreign coaches is that they don't easily get involved in team politics and don't have their own axe to grind. Having said that, however a hard task master is the need of the day and julien hasn't had any kind of impact on Pakistan fielding during his stints.

    Not so sure about Ijaz Ahmad. He was a good fielder but nothing special. Don't think he'd add too much to the current team. He is a good choice for academy level but as a team coach i am not too sure
     
  15. Omar
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    Omar Cricistan Moderator

    Jan 27, 2010
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    How many stints in the past has Fountain had with Pakistan? Well it says alot as no matter who comes these guys just dont want to learn and improve! :p
     
  16. hassan ali
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    hassan ali Youngsta Beauty

    Feb 14, 2010
    1
    the govenrment should give the responsibility of building a gud team to imran khan.otherwise this team will do the same thing which they did in last against australia.in my view there is no hope except imran to reveal the team.
     
  17. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
    16,689
    I did an interview with Imran Khan and he said he wont be coming back to cricket so we can forget about that.
     
  18. zeenix
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    zeenix Administrator

    Dec 17, 2009
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  19. Muddaser
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    Muddaser Youngsta Beauty

    Feb 16, 2010
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    We need more than a new Coach.

    Our losses to Australia had more to do with lack of self belief than Tactics/Technique.
     
  20. zeenix
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    zeenix Administrator

    Dec 17, 2009
    5,471
    well said. The tour of Australia is undoubtedly a tough one, and there is a pattern recurring for at least the last three tours that i can remember. we tend to loose badly in the first test, come back remarkably well in the second only to let it go and then abject surrender in the third. this has happened for too long. We do need psychological help in this regard.
     
  21. the_game
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    the_game Youngsta Beauty

    Dec 23, 2009
    129

    With the likes of Malik mafia members in the team, and the Pakistani culture of "it's ok sirji, chalta hai chalta hai", that will never work Hash. Not in a million years.

    We will have someone feeble like Intikhab coming in as coach again, and all will be the same.
     
  22. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
    16,689
    I think we as fans also need to look beyond players we hate and players we support blindly. Too many fans get into the trap of blaming every problem on the players they hate and turning a blind eye to the same problems when their favourite players are the culprits.

    I keep hearing everyone going on about the Malik Mafia but what about when Malik was captain and the 'seniors mafia' was plotting against Malik?

    Until we as fans can look beyond our likes and dislikes and hold every player equally responsible, we have no right to expect anything better from the PCB or the Pakistan team.
     
  23. the_game
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    the_game Youngsta Beauty

    Dec 23, 2009
    129
    As long as the "seniors mafia" had talent and match-winners in their ranks, I would have still supported them because I want the most talented players to represent Pakistan, not a bunch of mediocre nobodies like Malik or Rao who won't even make it to first class teams in many cricketing nations. Regardless though Merc, more than the Malik gang, it's the culture of us Pakistanis that would never let such a dominating coach take over. He will either be overthrown, or will quit out of sheer frustration by the attitudes. Sad, but true.
     
  24. Invictus
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    Invictus Talented

    Feb 15, 2010
    1,236
    The only thing I have seen working in pak cricket is a strong captain. People will point to Woolmer but for each Woolmer we had two Phybuses and one Lawson with a couple of Inti's thrown in to the mix.
    Even with Woolmer it was mostly Inzi who ran the show. While Woolmer being the man he was worked in the background.
     
  25. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
    16,689
    TG, I agree about the strong coach point, The only way someone like Mickey Arthur could survive in the Pakistan setup is if we drop the senior players and start fresh with a young and malleable unit. But how many times are we going to rebuild?

    Invictus, you've hit the nail on the head. I've always said that Pakistan have been at their best under strong, no-nonsense captains like Kardar, Imran, Wasim and Inzi. Our players respond better to a couple of gaalis and a dressing down than they do to a democratic setup. I still remember one occasion when Inzi got run out and went totally nuts screaming and cursing on the pitch, I think Razzaq was at the receieving end and you just knew that Razzaq would get it when he went back into the dressing room.

    I miss that kind of passion in our players. There was a similar incident during the recent Test series where Butt ran out MoYo and MoYo had a go at him but you could see that Butt didnt care. MoYo may be a classy player but he doesn't have the legendary status and sheer presence that guys like Kardar, Imran, Wasim and Inzamam exuded.

    That's why, despite the ball eating episode, I still think Afridi is the best choice for captain in all 3 forms of the game. I can't see too many guys crossing him and living to tell the tale. He may not have the presence of the above 4 but he's the closest thing we have in the current team.
     

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