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The Outswinger.

Discussion in 'Cricket Talk' started by ShokoTolo_LoloMoto, Jan 5, 2020.

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  1. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,518
    I posted this on a couple of other cricket forums a couple of minutes ago, so I thought to share it here as well.

    I know that even though we don't have too much of a traffic here on this forum but still think some of you have good cricketing knowledge.

    Lets see whats your feedback and how do you share your thoughts on it for a hopefully good discussion.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    *Disclaimer*: This discussion is not pertinent to T20.


    So lets get straight to the point.

    If I pick top 100 talented right arm fast bowling youngsters from Pakistan, and give them to our national bowling coach Mr. Waqar Yonus - increase his salary to $1 million a month - and then ask him to teach 10 off of these 100 talented young bowlers, that trademark of your inswining yorker, Waqar will most likely fail to do so, even if we give him 10 years worth of time.

    Same goes with Wasim. He can't produce another Wasim no matter how hard he coaches ANYONE.

    Why stop here? Same goes with Sachin and Viv Richards. They can't produce another Sachin or another Viv even if they work together.

    So now that we kinda got the idea that all time great legends are not only hard-workers but they also have a supreme God gifted talent to begin with.
    And this God gifted talent is NOT something that they can transfer or teach to others.

    Keeping this in mind, our epitome of pace bowling was when the two W's were at peak.

    And now that we know that we CANNOT "plan" to produce those two W's by "hard work" or by improving our domestic cricket on the grass root level (which we must do nonetheless), the question is, what realistic standard of pace bowling should we idolize, and then make it our goal and work towards it in an effort to compete against good TEST teams?

    And this is where my post kicks in.
    I started thinking about this post after our recent Test defeats in Australia.

    In the great charms of pace bowling, we know that "The Outswinger" is not only one of the most beautiful deliveries, but also one of the most lethal weapons in the armory a pace bowler.

    With the correct line and length of an outswinger, you immediately start asking questions. No matter who he is, you force the batsman to start taking risks.

    Keeping this in mind, we now look at the ability of our pace bowlers to deliver the outswingers. And we see that there is hardly any consistency.

    The question is, how to outswing the ball? And why do our national team level pace bowlers are not well versed with it but more importantly our coaches, especially our national bowling coach is totally lost about it?

    From the little experience of my cricket playing days, and watching a number of videos, I noticed that pace bowlers who can bowl the outswinger have one quality/skill in common.

    "They manage to keep the seam POSITION and seam DIRECTION in a certain shape.
    (Again, we are not talking about Wasim Akram and Waqar Younus who where God gifted. We are talking about pace bowlers who have actually LEARNED how to swing the ball after years n years of practice).


    So here it goes.

    a - Notice the seam position. It's upright.
    b - Notice the seam direction. It's slightly tilted towards the slips.

    We have Jimmy Anderson and Tim Southe here in the examples. Both are doing what's noted in 'a' and 'b' above.

    1 - Jimmy Anderson.
    Captured the screen shot at 11:10
    This is the wicket of Pretorius on second day of the second Test between Eng and SA in 2020.

    [​IMG]

    Rewind a little and watch the replay in slow motion at 11:10 timestamp mark, to see how he delivers the outswinger and lures the batsman into playing the stroke to eventually losing his wicket.
    Analyze the seam shape where he does not let it wobble.

    [utube]zH3UhT211WI[/utube]


    3 - Tim Southee.

    Screen shot at 0:25 and also at 1:48

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    Rewind a little and watch the replays in slow motion at around 0:25 and 1:48, to see how he moves the ball to a right hander for an outswinger, and to a left hander for whom it becomes an inswinger. Seam shape does not wobble in either case.

    [utube]xJW0OgK7obQ&t=108s[/utube]

    Additionally, if you look at the left handed pacers, they seem to be doing the same.

    Tilt the seam position slightly towards the slips, don't let it wobble, and make the ball talk.

    Here is Boult at 0:29.

    [​IMG]

    A mind boggling outswinger to a left hander. Rewind and watch the replay in slowmo at around 0:29 timestamp.

    [video=youtube;8siXPS2aGNU]

    Starc does it all the time. Just watch his seam shape in slow motion replays.
    There are many other pace bowlers who do the same.


    -----------------------------------------------

    Now, in comparison, watch the slow motion replays of existing Pakistani fast bowlers (both left arm and right armers) during our Australia tour..

    And you will notice that none of 'em is able to create the seam position in this shape. (Do they even know about it?). What we mostly saw instead, was a horrendous wobbling of the seam on a wrong line and length through out the test series. You can watch the hightlights of the entire series on YT.

    There may be some one off incidents of our current bowlers doing it but from what I remember, Shaoib Akhtar used to do this.

    Here is he at 2:29.

    [​IMG]

    Rewind and watch the replay in slow motion and look at the seam position at around 2:29 timestamp.

    [video=youtube;xFFzRakUbBo]

    So I get back to my question.
    Instead of living in the glories of the past and subtly yearning to have another Wasim or Waqar, why don't we start looking forward?

    Pace bowling was our bread and butter.

    If indeed its genuinely hard to produce another pair of the two W's, why can't our existing pace bowlers learn this basic technique of outswing?
    This does not seem to require a whole lot of "naturally God gifted talent".

    It's a technique and it's an art, that many can learn with proper coaching and extensive practice.

    If I look back, Amir and Junaid both lost their ability to swing, and no one in our setup was able to help them revive it.

    We now have Shinwari, Naseem, and even Abbas and whatnot. They just don't seem to be able to effectively create this seam shape. They simply can't swing it in this fashion.

    Yes, the pitch and weather conditions are also a factor to swing the ball. Yes, there are a couple of other ways to swing the ball and YES, you will not always get a wicket if you outswing the ball. But for goodness sake, how hard is to realize that learning this technique could be an absolute lethal weapon in your armory?

    So where do we go from here?

    Many of you may not agree but I think it's our bowling coach.
    I doubt that Waqar is able to teach this technique to our existing pacers. And I doubt that our domestic level pace bowling coaches even have the foggiest of ideas about it.

    The world has moved on but we are still stuck in the golden memories of Wasim and Waqar. IMO, it's time to change the reverse gear, and march forward to catch up with the rest.

    IMO, if we TRULY want improve our pace bowling by injecting this lethal skill of outswing, we need a coach like Cricket Victoria's Tim McCaskill.

    Watch how he gives the basic tips, not only on how to effectively deliver an outswinger but also, on the opposite seam shape for the inswingers.



    IMO, we truly don't need Waqar. Not even one bit.
    Lots and lots of money is being wasted here. And we already know that he cannot teach that trademark of his own, "toe crushing inswinging yorker" to anyone. No matter how much money you offer him, and no matter how high of a position in PCB you give him, he can't teach that trademark Yorker to anyone.

    I firmly believe that we actually need a bowling coach like Tim to extensively work with our pace bowlers who clock above 130 kph. Teach them this technique and then supervise the extensive practice sessions till we truly learn this art.

    In my opinion, if this happens, we will significantly improve our pace bowling potency.

    And next when we visit Australia, NZ, England and South Africa where conditions may support swing, chances are, our pace bowlers could uplift the game, instead of how poorly we bowled in the last test series during the Australian tour.
     
  2. isaacking
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    isaacking Talented

    Jul 16, 2010
    2,339
    First thing first,

    Waqar is not asked to make more waqar for sure.

    Now the concept of swinging the ball,

    Remember swing is a in built thing amongst the bowler but this obsession of bowling fast as let Pakistan down.

    A younget bowler with 130ish pace is treated badly in Pakistan. Even if he can swing the ball every damn coach will ask him to bowl faster only than he will be threat to a batsman, blast the wicket.

    They will not ask him to work out a batsman, set him up with swing or lack of it.

    Swing bowling is an act of art where we enjoy the bowler making fool out of the batsman.

    Swing as some natural phenomena to it and some time it will happen or not happen but you have to keep at it.

    Easiest way to impart swing is to work on the release of the delivery. Just learn to imply back swing at the time of release.

    Strong wrist and knowing how to lock it to achieve which swing is important too. Side way action helps.

    All this can be taught and perfected with time and mostly waqar' role is to coach the bowler in these area.

    But waqar will waste his time on getting the run up corrected and teach how to bowl fast.

    If you want Pakistani bowler to succeed in Australia than the look for someone similar to sarfraz Nawaz not wasim or waqar.

    Also I'll not bank on out swing to get me wicket if my faith in my slip cordon is not good enough believe they will hold on the Catches.

    It is preferable to be Man of Understanding then to be a Man of Knowledge.
     
  3. Mohammed Bilal
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    Mohammed Bilal Tracer Bullet

    Jul 17, 2017
    7,286
    Well in recent years due to pitch conditions many young pacers have come in with even pace of 123-126 kph. They didn't even know how to swing the ball. They just bowled the ball and ball started to seam because of pitch conditions and the type of ball promoted seam all day.
     
  4. isaacking
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    isaacking Talented

    Jul 16, 2010
    2,339
    Seaming ball is something bit easy. It all happens due to pitch, one just has to land the ball on seam or part of seam to let the ball deviate, simple as that.

    Swing is a complex art need practice and understanding of grip, release and length. We need to help younger bowlers to work and improve on the required skills.

    It is preferable to be Man of Understanding then to be a Man of Knowledge.
     
  5. Mohammed Bilal
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    Mohammed Bilal Tracer Bullet

    Jul 17, 2017
    7,286
    Well yes but getting any movement is better than nothing at all. Hadley used to rely on seam movement. Most of our bowlers don't get any movement seam or swing also commentators mix the two up haven't you noticed? I know swing is when ball moves in air and seam is after ball has landed the ball moves of the seam.
     
  6. isaacking
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    isaacking Talented

    Jul 16, 2010
    2,339
    I was a swing bowler for whole of my bowling career and know the difference of seam movement and swing.

    Last good swing bowler for Pakistan was shahid nazir, he had a lethal out swinger but he was thrown out in favour pace.

    Asif was best seam bowler from Pakistan.

    Thing is in Pakistan coaches at grass root level have no idea about the difference in swing and seam bowler. They try to coach everyone in a way way, that is bowl fast and hit the wicket.

    Once the young mind have this idea than it will take years to undo it or only a nature talent will be able to turn it around quickly.

    Pakistan need to invest in grade level coach, make it monetarily interesting for ex-cricketer to take it up.

    I was hoping that some like fazal-e- akhbar will take up coaching but it see that happening.

    It is preferable to be Man of Understanding then to be a Man of Knowledge.
     
  7. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,518

    This a great ad-on to my thoughts and I mostly agree as you raised some valid points.

    The question, why is Waqar hired if he is not expected to produce at least half of what he was?

    IMO, and I think you will agree that there is a great misconception that exists among the novice, dumb and incompetent people who believe that "A great and legendary player automatically becomes a great coach, and he will produce one like him".

    With the exception of Rahul Dravid, we know that Maradona coached, Pele coached, Viv Richards coached, Tendulkar coached, Wasim Akram coached but all ended up with little to no success.

    I think our entire setup in PCB unconsciously expects that putting Waqar as a coach will give us another Waqar.
    If not, then you tell me why is Waqar hired as the bowling coach?
    Does he have some sorta out of this world coaching history where made day n night difference due to his coaching abilities? Does he work for free? Are other boards on their knees begging Waqar to coach their bowlers?
    The answer is, No, No and No. Conclusively.

    If we look back at Waqar's indiping yorker, we notice that this was his main strength. If he didn't have that, he would've never been a legendary bowler. Speed alone is not enough.

    So if we have hired Waqar primarily to hope that he will increase the pace of our bowlers then it's as stupid as it gets.
    And as you agreed that pace alone does NOT work in modern day cricket.

    Even if Waqar helps making a bowler clock at 160 kmh, he won't last more than a couple of years.

    The reason is, there is SO MUCH cricket being played by a player these days that a fast bowler's body just cannot handle the workload.

    Our admins at PCB need to understand that coaching is an altogether different ball game. A great player almost never is a great coach. And Waqar miserable flunks here.

    Why because?
    He is not asked for, and he can't, produce another Waqar. And obviously, he is incapable of teaching the swing bowling, again because? He does not know what actually swings the ball. He had this trademark Yorker that came naturally to him, and he can't pass it on.

    And we are wasting time, money and effort in hoping to find an electric fast pace bowler with the help of Waqar while, as you said, he works on bowlers' steps and run ups.

    I still believe that a proper bowling coach like Tim McCaskill is what we really need to bring potency in our pace bowling. Waqar won't do crap for us.
    Our bowlers need to know how to swing the ball, and soon as the conditions suit them, they should be able to spell the magic. And right now, it's not happening.
     
  8. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,518
    Partially agree.
    Please review the slow motions as I noted in the OP.
    In all incidents, the ball starts to move and takes shape BEFORE it hits the deck.
    Making the ball land partially on the seam and let it deviate definitely has an additional effect (Asif was a master of this), but the ball primarily moves off the seam due to atmospheric conditions.

    Muggy and heavy atmosphere helps the ball move off the seam even if you are bowling on cemented pitches or on pure grass.

    Here in the Midwestern United States, we play on cemented pitches and often the ball moves like a banana in the morning sessions.

    Yes, there are various factors that play their role behind the scene to make the ball move in the air. Atmospheric conditions may not be in our control but the problem is, a professional pace bowler representing his country in a TEST match should know the basic factors that are in YOUR control.
     
  9. isaacking
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    isaacking Talented

    Jul 16, 2010
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    I am one dead against waqar and misbah as coaches.

    They don't inspire people to have trust in them and that kills any chance of them teaching anything to anyone.

    I believe PCB is not seek waqar/coach international players, they want the current management to streamline the practice session and provide moral support for anything other than that will out of waqar/misbah ability.

    It is preferable to be Man of Understanding then to be a Man of Knowledge.
     
  10. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
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    Totally agree on Fazal-e-Akbar.
    He was very unlucky to break into Pak team due to the two W's ruling the world. And our admins at PCB were dumb enough not to rotate him.
    His bowling action, wrist and seam position was something he had LEARNED and developed after years of practice. He could've easily taught it to others.
     
  11. isaacking
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    isaacking Talented

    Jul 16, 2010
    2,339
    Swinging new ball is easy, it will swing most of the time.

    When I talk swing than it is mainly semi new or old ball.

    Good swing bowler will let you he will never want ball to start swinging from the release but he will try to swing it late.

    Late swing is deadly, if the ball start to move from hand it gives batsman time to adjust to it, and mainly only newish ball will start to swing from hand.

    Regard to seam movement on cement pitch just try to remind yourself which kind of ball were you using.

    If your ball had a pronoun seam than surely it will give you seam movement on glass.

    It is preferable to be Man of Understanding then to be a Man of Knowledge.
     
  12. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
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    Swinging with an old ball is another ball game. I am not even worried about it at this point.

    The problem I am specifically talking about is the new ball and the way our pacers bowled during the Test series in Australia. We could hardly swing the new ball in the same conditions where Aussies were moving it in the air and off the pitch.

    If our pace bowlers can make the new ball swing, then we may not even need to worry too much about swinging the old ball because most likely, the damage will already have been done with the new ball.

    So far the ball swinging from the hand, I think it rarely happens in the international cricket.

    The ball usually needs to be pitched up, so that it stays in the air for nano second longer and then starts to move.
    Late swing can be achieved with the higher speed. There is a delicate balance here which is not easily achievable.

    If you are swinging at 120 kph then obviously, a world class level seasoned batsman will easily cope with it.
    But if you swing it at around 130/135, it suddenly becomes a different story.
     
  13. isaacking
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    isaacking Talented

    Jul 16, 2010
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    When I say old ball that is 20/25 over ball.

    My experience says that if you are able to swing the 20 over old ball than swinging new is child's play.

    Bowling at 130 or so you just have to imply back spin at the time of delivery and you will achieve late swing.

    It is preferable to be Man of Understanding then to be a Man of Knowledge.
     
  14. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
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    My quest remains the same.

    In that Aussie test tour, our national team bowlers and the coach could not display the "child's play".
    Amir and Junaid forgot how to perform the "child's play" and no one in our setup was able to help them.
     
  15. isaacking
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    isaacking Talented

    Jul 16, 2010
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    Because the wrist were collapsed and there is not effort to correct it.
    We know waqar won't be able to do it.

    So we have look for an aussie coach to help our bowlers to perform well down under.

    It is preferable to be Man of Understanding then to be a Man of Knowledge.
     
  16. thair9999
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    thair9999 Emerging Player

    Oct 17, 2010
    538
    I remember very long time ago, when we used to go for practice, the only advise we got regarding the batting was play with straight bat. And none regarding the bowling.
    I don't think any of our Great bowlers got any coaching, let me correct, the kind of coaching these days.
    The great bowler became great because 1st they were God gifted and were willing to learn from seniors. These days in my opinion there is over coaching, and all domestic coaches are trying to make young bowers into Waqar, Waseem, Imran etc. They do not realize that everyone is different, beside the brain there are physical differences and not everyone is built like Waqar and so on. The coaching should be making the young to think smart and experiment with the ball.
    Amir a good example, have talent but he gave up the learning and seems happy with where he is.
     
  17. Del
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    Del Fantasy Draft Wins: 1

    Dec 21, 2016
    12,721
    @ShokoTolo_LoloMoto - excellent thread.

    Outswinger is vital for a pacer to have it in the armory, however, my emphasis is more on Inswinger, because it brings both getting LBW and bowled into the equation. A batsman who knows where his off stump is and can play on the up would be pretty solid against outswing.

    Outswinger is a bit more manageable for those players who are good on the back foot, and play on their toes away from the body, find out-swinger easier. They are able to cover the line of the ball when it moves away from them, in the air.

    On the other hand, batsmen will find in-swinging deliveries tougher to play because they get cramped for room and leave their bat-pad gap open, specially if they are not in form.

    So in a nutshell, it depends on batsmen technique.
     
  18. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
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    If you analyze the fall of wickets in the top order, you will notice that A LOT more wickets fall by the outswinger with the new ball rather than the inswinger.

    Both Jimmy Anderson and Stuart Broad are world class masters of this.
    Tim Southe is also great.
    Starc and Boult use it with perfection again left hand batsmen. They both also use it greatly against right handers for it becomes an inswinger.

    A good Outswinger is almost a guarantee of a wicket, and hence the reason why, up to three top fielders are compromised in the slips region only.

    Inswinger is also great; however, 90% of the time you can cope with an inswinger simply by coming nicely up on the front foot.

    When facing a pacer, take your left leg (right handed batsman) far out on the crease, and if it’s an inswinger, it will easily be compromised.

    If it’s an indipper off the pitch (and not an inswinger off the seam) where the ball starts to move in AFTER bouncing off the surface, then yeah, it’s a different story.
    Asif Charsi was a master of this.

    What outswinger does is that it makes the batsman wrongfully commit to play the stroke as he instinctively thinks if he leaves it alone, it will hit the off or middle stump or hit him plumb in front of the wickets.

    Once he commits, there is no going back, and only then the ball starts to deviate from the committed line, kissing the outside and bringing slip fielders into action.

    It’s an absolutely beautiful sight.

    And I am not against the inswinger. Pace Bowlers MUST learn it too, as you can see in the video of Tim McCaskill.

    I truly hope Harris Rauf, while he is in Australia. gets some training from a coach like Tim and learns how to effectively use the seam and wrist position, and learns how to swing both in and out.

    And hopefully, it happens before Waqar starts his stupid and clueless coaching, and destroys Harris.
     
  19. isaacking
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    isaacking Talented

    Jul 16, 2010
    2,339
    Anything that leave the batsman and does allow his body to be his second line of defense is far great threat to any batsman. Hence we find leg break bowlers are far more dangerous than off spinner.

    I'll love to bowl to a batsman who is willing to play away from his body, he is walking wicket 9 out 10 times on decent pitch.

    It is preferable to be Man of Understanding then to be a Man of Knowledge.
     
  20. Del
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    Del Fantasy Draft Wins: 1

    Dec 21, 2016
    12,721
    I totally understand but what I was implying is that Inswinger has higher probability to get wicket on less number of balls compared to Outswing (because bowler will need to bowl number of those), because it brings both getting LBW and bowled into the equation.

    Batsmen who are good on the back foot, and play on their toes away from the body, find out-swinger easier, I believe. Because they're able to cover the line of the ball when it moves away from them, in the air. They can punch on the up. Examples of such batsmen are Sachin, Kamran, Sehwag. Sachin was hardly troubled by Steyn even in his last tour. On the other hand, these batsmen will occasionally find in-swinging deliveries tougher to play because they get cramped for room and leave their bat-pad gap open. When Sachin lost his form, his prime way of getting out was bowled of in-swingers because he left himself open to deliveries coming in by playing on the up.

    Conversely, batsmen who reach out for balls will find out-swingers tougher. It is easier to kill the ball dead when you lunge forward, if it is coming in as opposed to going out. Some examples are Ponting, Hafeez, Dravid, etc. They will hardly play away from the body (Hafeez does) so their bat pad gap is smaller, but this leaves them more susceptible when ball moves away. Ponting really lunges forward, but his pad will always be very close to his bat when he does.
     
  21. isaacking
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    isaacking Talented

    Jul 16, 2010
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    Exception can't be termed as rule.

    Few batsman find out swinger easy, few find in swinger easy those are exceptions.

    It is preferable to be Man of Understanding then to be a Man of Knowledge.
     
  22. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,518
    Lets say, we are talking about a 70 meter boundary line.
    The total area of such a ground is about 15400 sq meters

    IMO, if the probability of taking a wicket was higher with an inswinger then, teams would've figured this out by now.
    And they wouldn't take a risk to lock three top fielders in the slips only to cover a 10 linear meters in a 15400 square meters ground.

    Captains would simply ask the bowlers to bowl inswing and leave the slip area open, and use those fielders somewhere else.

    But yeah, if you have an inswinging yorker like Waqar or an indipper like Asif Charsi that brings batsmen like Tendulkar and Lara on their knees then that's an exceptional case.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
  23. Del
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    Del Fantasy Draft Wins: 1

    Dec 21, 2016
    12,721

    Cricket is also a mind game, wherein you deceive batsmen via your field setting.

    I have seen many times bowler bowling with 3/4/5 slip fields, constantly bowling on 3rd/4th/5th stump line and try to observe the batmen. Once batsmen come on frond food than bowl an inswinger or indipper, which is a perfect trap, because after its very difficult for a batsmen to know after facing 7/8 outswinger that next one will be another inswinger or outswinger. And to make things even more spicer, it will become incredibly different for batsmen to judge an inswinger or outswinger if a bowler (i.e. Asif) bowls both with almost same action and wrist position.
     
  24. thair9999
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    thair9999 Emerging Player

    Oct 17, 2010
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    Both Waqar and Asif were pleasure to watch.
     
  25. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,518
    The part where you are saying the fielding team and the bowler tries to deceive the batsman, is true.
    Imran used to do this a lot.
    He would place a fielder on deep square leg indicating the batsman that a short pitch bouncer is coming to challenge the batsman.
    He would bowl a yorker instead.

    However, we circle back to my point. If you analyze the top order dismissals, you will notice that more batsmen get out on outswingers rather than inswingers. There is no deception game here.

    Watch the first 30 seconds of this video. No deception in the field setup. He already knows it's coming, he already knows slips is packed with fielders, yet the batsman can't stand the outswinger.

     

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