What did the JUI Dharna achieve?

Discussion in 'The Pavilion' started by Mars, Nov 17, 2019.

  1. Mars
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    Mars Talented

    Apr 23, 2012
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    Even though I don't give a lot of attention to what PTI fans have to say, I feel concerned when posters like @Disco Lemonade consider this Dharna to be a flop. Already we have seen the change in the winds with NS getting relief and IK being barred to Bani Gala.

    Let me first quote the interview of Chaudhary Parvaiz Elahi with Saleem Safi. Chaudhary Pervaiz and Shujaat were crucial in finishing the dharna from Islamabad and moving it onto the next phase. @Disco Lemonade Please listen to this segment of the interview completely.

    Here are a few points I was able to extract from what Chaudhary said. Also, we should keep in mind that the Chaudhary brothers have always had a direct link with the establishment as seen in Musharraf Era (Lal Masjid, Bugti etc).

    - Dharna had a direct impact on NS illness and letting him leave abroad
    - Maulana FazlurRahman had said he wouldn't leave Islamabad until he is guarenteed the resignation of PM or something equivalent to that. Chaudhary says we gave him something equivalent to that and he can't tell as it is "amanat"
    - PML-Qs Jahangir Tareen and Aleem Khan were directly taken to PTI by General Pasha as admitted by him in their meetings.
    - According to Chaudhary, Maulana FazlurRahman has achieved a lot in the dharna.
    - Had these brothers not been involved, MFZ was ready to stay longer.
    - Even though PML-Q was with PTI dharna in 2014, he still considers this Dharna to be more peaceful and a success in this regard.

     
  2. Mars
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    Mars Talented

    Apr 23, 2012
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    As far as what that "amanat" is? I can only guess but I feel like Bajwa has decided to step down after all of this and also taken away the support he gave earlier to the government.

    Time will tell best.
     
  3. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

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    I agree with u regarding chaudary brothers links with the establishment, but they are not as strong that they could guarantee anything to anyone on behalf of the establishment.
    Imran and such is part of a bigger plan.

    Talking of Jahangir tareen, why do you think him and aleem khan were termed na ahl by the courts and election commission when they were specifically placed by the establishment? Doesn't that make for a conflicting story. Ironically, both of them.
     
  4. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

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    Time will tell, but I am not sold yet to the story of establishment getting frustrated by Imran. It maybe the other way around. It would be interesting to see how Imran gets back at this since he has taken a 2 day break. Nawaz is yet to leave. There can be another twist, as we have seen before.
     
  5. Mars
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    Mars Talented

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    It's not like both of them aren't working. Aleem was cleared and JT is heading cabinet sessions in the PM House. Why they got Na Ahl might have some other twisted stories especially the Shah Mahmood Qureshi rivalry might have had a huge impact on the decision because JT was going to be the default cm in Punjab. It's not like all of PTI is on the same page.
     
  6. Mars
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    Mars Talented

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    IK is thinking about resignation as reported by Nabeel Gabol today in the parliament and it would be a master stroke of him to do it right now as it would be a great face saving for him considering the timing but I'm not sure if he will be able to ever come back in the government as he has failed horribly.
     
  7. Mycroft Holmes
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    Mycroft Holmes Talented

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    If he achieved anything then why the heck is he talking about 'plan B'
     
  8. Mars
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    Mars Talented

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    They have to maintain pressure until the actual forces complete their promised task.
     
  9. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

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    it was a massive unmitigated flop. no support, no results. and commentary from ex-partenrs of the most corrupt politicians to have sat in PM house.

    everyone on the planet can see it. the only reason that the PMLN were backing him was so that they could create a distraction for NS to leave under the radar which they nearly did unit his idiotic nephew in a moment of hubris posted up a tweet about 'game changing'. it was either an idiotic moment of hubris, or else it was a master stroke of sabotage - I reckon shabby is still better and maryam moocow publicly humiliating him.

    the result is that the permission to leave has been granted to NS, however, a failure to return will be a judicial matter and so whereas had they signed the papers the PTI had asked for, asset recovery might have taken years, now a violation of a judicial order will allow asset recovery to happen within weeks.

    as soon as NS was ready to go, FUR was talking about winding down the dharna. not only was there never any chance it was going to achieve any more, but the only utility itv was designed to have was done.

    total. utter. failure on every count. from a man who couldn't even win in his own constituency.

    on the flip side the government has offered an independent enquiry into the elections to investigate allegations of fixing. did the opposition agree? of course not, because there wasnt any.

    anchors are now running their own youtube channels which are full of adverts to make up foe huge contracts that the PMLN has been handing out like sweeties, now that the government has put an end to that. So all they are doing is stringing bite side cliff hanger stories to get more hits and advertising revenue - they are all doing the same.

    PMLQ are only relevant as a marginal party for the coalition, any marginal party is a king maker in that regard. they are simply trying to capitalise on the necessary difficult economic policies that were necessary to save teh country from bankruptcy, as anyone with any honesty, integrity and intelligence can see. as can be witnessed in the financial markets, both stocks and currency.

    its only corrupt, evil, enemies of pakistan that are trying to conflate these issues, defending convicted criminals who have convicted multiple times through their lives, have spend years of their lives in jail and in exile, accused fo embezzling billions of dollars, and of extraordinary nepotism, who cant provide money trials for immense wealth, who cant justify why all their families are abroad despite being in power multiple terms, who havent been able to build hospitals over decades to cater for them, who cant justify why they should receive VIP treatment in terms of courts in Lahore opening up on a Saturday specifically for them, or why they should receive compassionate leave over any number of sick prisoners, and who's cabinet are virtually all in jail or under investigation for corruption, drug peddling, being employees in other countries whilst in office and so on.

    its only corrupt, enemies of pakistan that would support all of that over a government that has virtually nothing in comparison, a 2mm$ vs $2bn investigation, who have been in term the whole of one and a half years after inheriting the economy in the worst state that it has ever been in, with a beligerant war mongering neighbour, and who despite all that has delivered massive, massive improvements to trade balance, exports, current account deficit and international relations.

    thankfully its only a small number of corrupt patwaris that are trying their best to further Moscow's media cell propaganda, anyone else with any intelligence can see the above facts clearly.
     
  10. Mycroft Holmes
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    Mycroft Holmes Talented

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    lol you truly are confused, what tangible objecive did they achieve...
    plan B means plan A has failed.
     
  11. Mars
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    Mars Talented

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    A simple answer to the nonsense you have written down: The deal maker from the PTI government disagrees. He says FUR was successful. What you say has no value in actual world.
     
  12. Mars
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    Mars Talented

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    Had you listened to the Speaker of Punjab Assembly, you would've known but you choose to troll instead.
     
  13. Mycroft Holmes
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    Mycroft Holmes Talented

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    Im not trolling .... what concession did u get
     
  14. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

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    theres a text book illustration of irony.
     
  15. Mycroft Holmes
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    Mycroft Holmes Talented

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  16. Mycroft Holmes
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    Mycroft Holmes Talented

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    This guy is an absolute idiot,
     
  17. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

    May 12, 2016
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    Omg. This is zaman’s future for Pakistan.
     
  18. MNA
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    MNA Smooth Operator

    Mar 11, 2015
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    Lol this is far from over.....

    ابتدائے عشق ہے، روتا ہے کیا

    آگے آگے دیکھئے ہوتا ہے کیا
     
  19. Patriot
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    Patriot Kaptaan

    Oct 8, 2014
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    it achieved what any other dharna achieves...more sheeps for harvesting
     
  20. Mycroft Holmes
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    Mycroft Holmes Talented

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    yeah, but when you factor in the geopolitical situation of Pakistan this is terrifying....IF these are the future of Pakistans ruling elite then thank God Almighty that the army have a degree of independance. If this cretin cant grasp the concept of wikileaks what the hell makes him a candidate for having his finger on the button.
     
  21. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

    May 12, 2016
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    I agree in principle, but in this case, he's never going to get into power. your original post amply demonstrates that he is unfit for office. its obvious that he has sentimental influence in some limited quarters due to being in a poverty riddled, illiterate country desperate for some relatable, local role models - sadly similar to many parts of the world. id prefer to extend the benefit of the doubt to his followers - that they are victims of their circumstance rather than deliberate saboteurs of the country.

    the reason I think he wont ever be in power is the same reason that he has influence in some limited quarters only - he couldn't even get elected in his own constituency; and even when he was at the heights of his power, he was able to only garner a few seats.

    where he has any relevance is when there is a coalition, or close race between a two or three party system where the people who control the marginal seats become the king makers despite having very little public support. this is the same issue that people are conflating with the PMLQ gossip in the current situation, and for that matter the army's influence, but more of that in a second.

    this is why modern democracies on the most part are utterly dysfunctional and inherently corrupt.

    you can see it all here:

    Screenshot 2019-11-18 at 11.54.15.png

    this chart pretty much sums up everything. if there is a coalition party with a slim majority (similar to tories and DUP for example), then that marginal partner can make demands. what they risk is that they are replaced so they go from limited influence to their truly representative position of no power at all.

    this is where all the bullshit about army rigging comes from. our resident anti-army noonatic dimwit has posted up his strongest evidence to support his case in the often quoted book by the anti-army brigade: military inc - written by a journalist and political activist with perhaps some genuine gripes against the army, and their legitimately unacceptable practices of making people disappear - not that that is much different from any other vested interest in Pakistan. the one thing the proponents of her work seem to miss is actually reading the book, where she ESTIMATES the MAXIMUM impact of the economy of the army as being a tiny fraction of the national economy. that makes them irrelevant from that point of view - they just cant have any power from their economic positions relative to a country the size of Pakistan and the size of its economy, thats just black and white, indisputable fact.

    where they can have influence is in exactly the same limited way that diesel and Shujaat can - as king makers in the marginal seats, and even then they can only hold this sway if there is a slim majority of the ruling party or coalition. you can see the independents share in that chart above to see how the army might influence ruling party outcomes, but ints certainly not rigging, and its no different from any of the behaviour of any political party at all, nor is it illegal. they are a political hobby in this regard, like all political lobbies.

    the reason that these marginal politicians do become king makers is because the political assets in the country are rotten after decades of being run by despotic dynastic puppets in the PPP and PMLN who have ruled by self interest and self engorgement - a perfect incentive to install and develop politicians who are either impotent or who can be bought. and thats unfortunately the fallout that IK has to deal with, the landscape of all politicians in the country is filthy and toxic thanks to the PMLN and PPP, theres no other pool to form a party from.

    interestingly, you can see all this theory reflected in these boards.

    for all his countless faults, Zaman does provide one useful purpose and that is a window into the propaganda of the corrupt. its obvious to anyone who reads him and his constant dribble of bullshit from FB PMLN media cells that there is literally no intelligence, context or argument, which is further confirmed by their total inability to respond when challenged.


    so you can see there is a strong vested interest from minorities (diesel, Shujaat, the army) and from the corrupt (PPP and PMLN) to at all cost prevent a single party from becoming dominant. this incidentally is exactly the same vested interest as those foreign powers wanting to control Pakistan as a country of pivotal geopolitical strategic importance, being a conduit for both china and so a lynchpin for Russian global strategy. so the US and EU want the same as do those minorities and the corrupt, as does India and Israel of course, and to a lesser extent the gulf states, so that they have a better chance of buying a mercenary military to fight for their royals.

    you can see this very easily in the indian media - there is an extraordinary overlap between the most anti-pakistan indian government in history, a muslim hating, innocents-slaughtering dog running Pakistan's most vocal enemy, and the polemic espoused by people like Zaman, the PPP and PMLN and Israel. its no coincidence that they all sing from the same hymn sheet.

    add into that mix the other corollaries of dysfunctional democracies in the third world: potentially politico/economically influenced judiciary, potentially politico/economically compromised media houses and a public that are neither literate enough to understand economic cycles, or wider challenges of public governance leaving them open to manipulation on short term issues with no focus on medium survival.

    we have seen this exact game play out in Egypt, in turkey, in Russia, in Greece, in Zimbabwe, in Bolivia, in most of the African states, and you can see more details in things like the economic hit man ().

    the end result for boards like this is that it is people like Zaman that are the true enemies of the Pakistan people. political leaders like sharif, or diesel or the army for that matter would not be able to do anything without Patwari support. they will have the blood of innocents on their hands, as they have in the past, and if there is a providence and a universal justice, they will have to account for their lies, deceit, murder and theft, and the oppression of the defenceless!
     
  22. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

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    sorry for the long post, got a bit carried away, think its all quite interesting.
     
  23. Disco Lemonade
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    Disco Lemonade Design Artist

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    Mars

    From today's speech it does look like imran is ready to let the PM ship go. He has threatened openly.
    Does not mean there is any rift between him and establishment. Means it's the other way round. He is throwing the toys out of the pram.
    I saw a tweet of former Chinese envoy to Pakistan and he applauded courts decision to release nawaz Sharif.
    Think the establishment finally gave in to the international pressure especially China.l regarding nawaz?
    I think imran have played his cards well till now regarding the opposition.
    He may aswell resign as he did when he was first made captain in his cricket career.
    And then come back even more stronger.
     
  24. Disco Lemonade
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    The last line is me assessing his cricket career not political. I still stand on my ground establishment wants him to stay.
    He is still standing on his ground regarding corruption.
     
  25. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

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    why do you think the Chinese are putting pressure on pakistan for them to let Nawaz Sharif go. this is a regime that is oppressing millions of its own people. Mao was within living memory and slaughtered tens of millions. why would they care what happens to sharif? what's their motivation?
     
  26. godzilla
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    I dont believe it for a second.

    the only motivations foreign powers will have for letting sharif go is to fragment power and prevent a one horse race in pakistan as I've described in that long post above. but its such a poor way of doing it, it would probably serve that motivation much better if Nawaz dies in pakistan and becomes a convict martyr that his posthumous supporters champion, despite his vast criminality, exactly like Benazir.

    in terms of fragmenting the political landscape, for foreign powers, I think it would be better for them for Nawaz to have stayed.
     
  27. Disco Lemonade
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    What it gives is that Chinese are interfering in our internal politics noe.
    We can safely say Chinese influence our foreign policy greatly.

    China's interest in Pakistan is strictly Chinese. They want to keep the door open for other political powers in future. So hence.
     
  28. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    Rumour was Spread so DG ISPR replied on Tv .

    ISLAMABAD – Director General of Inter Public Services Relations (ISPR) Major General Asif Ghafoor said government and Army are on same page and there are no differences among both.

    Talking to a private TV channel, DG ISPR rejected all the rumors about rifts between government and Army. He said PM Imran and Army Chief General Qamar javed Bajwa always remain in contact.

    He said both leaders meet whenever it is needed, adding that some meetings are reported and some are not.

    He said it is imperative for progress of Pakistan that both remain engaged to each other.

    He said Army is supporting the democratic government by fulfilling its constitutional obligation.

    SOURCE: https://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/519257-Govt-Army-on-same-page-DG-ISPR
     
  29. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

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  30. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

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    From what I have heard, the CPEC was proposed by PPP/Zardari but the Chinese only embarked on CPEC when NS came to power. Apparently trust/trusted NS more and therefore might have an interest in his survival. Have no evidence on this whatsoever though. One thing I have noticed is that the developments in CPEC, which previously were hyped, are quite muted under IK. If I am not mistaken IK also attempted to review CPEC investment when he came to power, which didn't go down well with the Chinese.

    @Disco Lemonade - thoughts?
     
  31. Mars
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    Mars Talented

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    Things are getting interesting. Let's see who comes out stronger but PMIK looked completely frustrated and looked different from his usual post PM self..Let's see. I am still pretty sure he has lost the support of establishment..Atleast to the point that they won't save him now like the previous times.
     
  32. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

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    Chal theek hai, hypothetically speaking, he has lost the support from establishment, than whats next?

    Elections? PML-N or PPP coming in power?
     
  33. Mycroft Holmes
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    Mycroft Holmes Talented

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    what did he achieve? come out stronger? Hes talking about plan B. Common sense dictates resorting to plan b is because A failed.
     
  34. Disco Lemonade
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    He did look frustrated with the court decision. I think he played the bond card thinking the court won't take it on themselves and throw it back on the govt. The court didn't, they took the decision by the book (probably).
    He was bending over to the judges committing to give them all the support and money.
    He threatened to resign.
    Think he is again playing his cards.
    It may just be a face saving show for his fan boys and making the courts look bad in their eyes.
    Rest was all the usual making fun of the opposition.
     
  35. Mars
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    Mars Talented

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    On second thoughts, it looks like the establishment has gotten neutral. they've finally decided to step back and let things get decided on political grounds.
    They have left IK on his own to deal with the opposition and this is why Imran Khan is back to the usual tone of his dharna where he is making emotional speeches..(Had I not seen his governance the previous year and all the Uturns before that, his speech would have convinced me lol..)

    Asad Umar is also back in the cabinet so that also points towards the establishment links getting weaker because Asad Umar was thrown out by the establishment and he would never come back under normal circumstances.
     
  36. Mycroft Holmes
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    or maybe the 'establishment' is this imaginary construct that you use as a crutch.... People like you are same the world over. When things go your way, 'the we're doing great because the establishment is taking a back seat'... and vice versa.

    Then again if you have cretins like rehman who actually believe wikileaks is a person then what hope is there for their supporters
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  37. Disco Lemonade
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    To be honest even sheikh rasheed predicted asad umar will be back soon after he was dismissed.

    To be fair he doesn't seems to be as power less as some people predicted. And probably the courts doesn't seem to be as influenced by the establishment or govt. as some made them to be.
     
  38. godzilla
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    godzilla Smooth Operator

    May 12, 2016
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    I can understand that they want to keep their options open with anyone who comes into power in the future. but as I said, it would serve the PMLN better if Nawaz dies in Pakistan. anyway, point taken, but I think its weak. china's position vis a vis a future possible PMLN government would not have been affected if they had kept quiet either.
     
  39. godzilla
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  40. godzilla
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    yes this was obvious, he was always going to come back in. this was publicly states months ago. usual bs fairy land imagination to obfuscate the support of corruption.
     

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