What make you say that Islam is NOT the religion of peace?

Discussion in 'The Pavilion' started by Del, Feb 9, 2019.

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  1. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    @Mohan, in the following thread, post # 587

    https://cricistan.com/threads/prime...rnment-performance-watch-thread.47273/page-15

    You said the following,

    I didnt want to discuss it in the same thread, because its a separate subject. However, I am very curious to know - what make you say this?
     
  2. Mohan
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    Mohan Formerly 'Captain Clutch'

    Nov 4, 2014
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    Various reasons. I will try to document as much as I can.

    The first example from the top of my head is the statewide protest that demanded the beheading of Asia bibi, that was touted as a peaceful one. In which world is the demand to behead someone peaceful?

    Also Islam prescribes death penalty for some offences (including if someone wants to convert to another religion I believe). Even then there are easier ways to die. But stoning someone to death? That's peaceful?

    Examples are there all over the net about Muslims refusing to condemn a terror attack when the terrorist is a Muslim. It reflects very strongly even on this forum. How many people even reacted to the below post from the Kashmir thread? Compare that to the outcry when a Muslim is beaten up in India for carrying beef.

    Below is the J and K chief minister, who usually is pretty active on the social media, but when asked why she didn't even react to the above, her reply to the journalist was - "I am not answerable to you".



    How many Muslims have you seen condemning the killing of Amarnath pilgrims by Muslim terrorists?

    Above all of this, my biggest problem is little kids being exposed to blood and gore in their own households. Muslims usually kill animals at their homes. I don't think this kind of upbringing will result in those kids growing up to become tolerant and peaceful individuals.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  3. s_h_a_f
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    s_h_a_f Tracer Bullet

    Dec 26, 2011
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    There are literally billions of Muslims- actions/thoughts of a small percentage cannot be used against the religion. Majority of Muslims use common sense and do not hold extreme views.

    The death penalty for apostasy is flawed...as far as I am aware, this has become leniant...jurists/judges will allow the apostate to rethink he’s/her’s views. The Quran clearly states ‘there is no compulsion in religion’ - nobody should be forced to be Muslim. Also, have you heard of anyone put to death because they have left Islam?

    With regards to kids being exposed to gore..Muslims ‘usually’ kill animals at home? Who told you this? Only Muslim kids are exposed to gore are they? Kids are exposed to gore everywhere...through social media...through movies...through games... through whatsapp..etc etc. I’ve seen videos of Hindus lyinchings Muslims in India..in front of kids...so your example of ‘Muslim kids being exposed to gore’ to justify your views is a very poor one.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  4. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    As @s_h_a_f has said, you can't generalize your views based on the actions of a small subset. People who you are referring were mostly illiterate villagers, however, did supreme court changed its decision, (judges were also Muslims)? Not let me throw a curveball at you and ask a counter question. Radicalized Hindu mobs are killing Muslims in India. Why is no one stopping them? Is it what Hinduism teaches?

    Another miss informed quote without understanding the context.

    Here is what I know about it. Such punishment applies in the case of a person who meets any of the following conditions:

    1 – The apostate. The apostate is one who disbelieves after being a Muslim, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6524.

    2 – The married adulterer. The punishment in this case is to be stoned to death.

    Al-muhsan or the married person here means one who got married and had intercourse with his wife in the vagina, in a legitimate marriage in which both parties are free, of sound mind and adults. If a married man or woman commits adultery, then they are to be stoned to death, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Learn from me. Allaah has given them a way out. If an unmarried person commits fornication with an unmarried person, (the punishment is) one hundred lashes and exile for one year. If a married person commits adultery with a married person, (the punishment is) one hundred lashes and stoning.” (Narrated by Muslim, 1690).

    And al-Bukhaari (2725) and Muslim (1698) narrated from Abu Hurayrah and Zayd ibn Khaalid al-Juhani (may Allaah be pleased with them) that they said: “Two men from among the Bedouin came to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, I adjure you by Allaah to judge me according to the Book of Allaah.’ The other disputant – who was smarter – said: ‘Yes, judge between us according to the Book of Allaah and give me permission to speak first.’

    The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘Speak.’

    He said, ‘My son was employed by this man, and he committed adultery with his wife. I was told that the punishment for my son would be stoning, but that he could be ransomed for one hundred sheep and their offspring. I asked the people of knowledge and they told me that the punishment for my son would be one hundred lashes and exile for one year, and that this woman would be stoned.’

    The Messenger of Allaah (S) said: ‘By the One in Whose hand is my soul, I will judge between you according to the Book of Allaah. The offspring and sheep will be returned (i.e., there is no ransom), and your son is to be given one hundred lashes and exiled for one year. O Unays [who was one of the Sahaabah], go tomorrow to that woman and if she admits (this crime) then stone her.’ So he went to her the next day and she admitted it, and the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) issued orders that she be stoned.

    You also claimed that dont agree with, Muslims dont condemn a terror attack when the terrorist is a Muslim.

    You need to understand this. Islam never prompts radicalization and terrorism. There are many Islamic leaders globally condemning terrorism. In islam killing of one human is considered killing of humankind.

    http://rissc.jo/condemning-terrorism/

    Inline is another source, which condemns the violence associated with Islam and has a massive list of very well credentialed signatories representing Muslims from everywhere in the world, people that are heavily qualified.

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7910

    Here ON CS I have always, always seen people condemn any such activity, regardless who has committed it.

    Another quote without any rational and background knowledge.

    First and foremost you need to understand why sacrifice/qurbani/udhiya is vital in Islam. It started by Prophet Ibrahim and his son Ismail (as), who were willing to make it in the way of Allah (swt).

    Ibrahim’s test teaches us many things about the most essential elements of our faith. The most important of these is absolute devotion and submission to Allah (swt). As we know, the literal meaning of the word ‘Islam’, is submission. Being Muslim means forsaking your own pride and ego to devote yourself completely to Allah (swt).

    As well as submission to Allah (swt), there are many other lessons that we can take from the history behind Qurbani:

    1) Sabr (Patience)
    2) Mercy
    3) Unity and Piety
    4) Care for less fortunate

    Now coming on to kids being exposed to gore. Kids are exposed to blood, even including violence via TV shows and movies, games like grand theft auto, SC media & YouTube etc. So its not even an argument.

    Last but not the least, its very, very disappointing to see that so many posters came to peek in this thread, but nobody bothered to replied except @s_h_a_f , which is a shame.

    Mohan has raised some question but seems like many here either dont have enough knowledge or they preferred to look in the other direction for whatever reason.

    If this thread was about Amir, Asif or Butt, if we were discussing how great Bobby darling is, how bad Sarfraz has been as skipper, how useless Malik or Hafeez have been as seniors or if there was something related to PTI or IK, then we would've seen overwhelming response (overwhelming bashing in case of PTI/IK), but this is the most less appealing topic for many armchair expert it seems.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
  5. Mohan
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    Mohan Formerly 'Captain Clutch'

    Nov 4, 2014
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    Calm down, there is no need to get emotional.

    All I said was that it is a usual practice for Muslims to kill animals at their home. If that is not true then I am sorry and thanks for correcting me there.

    Regarding Hindus lynching Muslims in India - in a population of 130 crores there are bound to be some loons. I can post examples of Muslims killing Hindus in India if you wish, so it is not that only Muslims are the victims.
     
  6. Passionate Pakistani
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    Passionate Pakistani The Don

    Jun 10, 2011
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    Religion itself is not the issue, its the people portraying it are and sadly most of our well knowned scholars have weird views on certain issues.. otherwise Islam doesnt allow killing/harming kids and women even in a state of war, let alone in normal conditions

    Beside, there is no concept of these suicide attacks in Islam, in fact suicide in itself is haram and strongly condemned.

    As i said, its the people (again a small minority) who are the problem not the religion in itself.

    Like who can believe that Maulana Fazlurehman is well learned scholar when you look at his acts, problem is that we know inside out of Pakistan ans its people so we can easily identify and say that they do not portray the real face of Islam but hard for people who are outside or unknown to the harsh facts about those individuals.

    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
     
  7. s_h_a_f
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    s_h_a_f Tracer Bullet

    Dec 26, 2011
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    I am calm :)

    Regarding the point in bold, same goes for Muslims..there are billions...thank you for agreeing with the point I made.
     
  8. Mohan
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    Mohan Formerly 'Captain Clutch'

    Nov 4, 2014
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    You missed my point then. I know the percentage of Muslim terrorists is a fraction of the total Muslim population.

    But the sympathizers of these terrorists seem to be in large numbers. The reason I posted the Mehbooba Mufti video above was exactly that, and there are several others on the internet where Muslims seem to have a fundamental issue when asked to condemn a terror attack where the victims happen to be non Muslims.

    Also, are non Muslims not referred to as Kufrs in Islam? I may be wrong again but that sounds like a derogatory term.
     
  9. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    Sorry but I strongly disagree Mohan that there is a mass sympathizers of terrorists. I have shared earlier few sources wherein Islamic scholars have condemned terrorist attacks. I know you shared a video of lady to support your argument, on the similar note I quote Hindu BJP leaders supporting Muslim killing and putting onus back in Muslims. However, I dont think either Hinduism or majority of Hindu will support it.

    And btw: Non-muslims are not kafir. All those who do not believe in God are kafir. Thus Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Jews etc who believe in God are not kafir. Kafir means an atheist.
     
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  10. MecnunK
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    MecnunK Youngsta Beauty

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  11. ElRaja
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    ElRaja Talented

    Jan 12, 2013
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    @Del kafir does not specifically refer to atheists, it refers to all disbelievers as far as im aware, i havnt researched this in a long time, but it can be eased to exclude non muslim believers of the abrahamic god (i.e. the difference between ahl-e-kitaab and kaffir), but polytheists are definitely kafirs from my understanding.
     
  12. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    I concur.
     
  13. KingOfDoosra
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    KingOfDoosra Sultan of Swing

    Jun 8, 2012
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    Islam is not the religion of peace. I hate when people throw around this phrase.

    Islam is a religion of justice, if you think Islam is some pacifist cult then you're deluded, and to be fair, we only feel the need to call Islam a religion of peace due to the image that has been created of Muslims post-colonial era.

    Also, just to add, I don't know in what context Mohan said this - and the background story to your thread.
     
  14. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    I second you, but what is more disappointing?

    When a question has been thrown on the table, but 'Muslims' start looking in other direction and pretend that nothing has happened - like in this thread. Check how many people have viewed this thread, but only handful came forward to say a word - Mashallah these are Muslims of today.
     
  15. KingOfDoosra
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    KingOfDoosra Sultan of Swing

    Jun 8, 2012
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    I don't agree with you, not replying to a thread on some random website doesn't prove or disprove one's loyalty with their religion.
     
  16. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    I am not questioning loyalty, but what do you do if somebody ask you a question or say something which is not true?
     
  17. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
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    Islam has never been the religion of peace. This is just a silly catchphrase people throw around.

    Islam is a proselytising religion, it aims to disrupt other faiths and acquire their followers. Muslims are required to give dawah to non-Muslims and try to convert them.

    Christianity is the same which is why there are so many missionaries out there.
     
  18. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    Sorry but something I dont understand.

    So yes, giving dawah is the way to invite others towards Islam & educate them, but how can this be used to say that Islam is not religion of peace?

    I am really determine to understand this, because to me, "Islam is not the religion of peace" notion was introduced by western media after some suicide attacks.
     
  19. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
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    It's actually the other way round. When I was young, nobody ever called Islam the religion of peace. It was never something which it was associated with. Not because it was thought of as a religion of violence, it wasn't. Before terrorism it was never really talked about much.

    However after a lot of violent attacks happened where the perpetrators claimed to have been inspired by Islam. A counter narrative was started where Islam was referred to as the religion of peace. This was to offset the reputational damage from the attacks and such.

    What makes a religion a religion of peace for you? For example; if you are saying Islam is the religion of peace then what makes Islam a more peaceful religion than any other religion? Excluding the acts of either religion's followers, what do you say makes Islam a more peaceful religion than Buddhism?
     
  20. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    I think we are saying the same thing.

    I said it was introduced by western media after suicide attacks and you also said that after a lot of violent attacks happened where the perpetrators claimed to have been inspired by Islam. A counter narrative was started where Islam was referred to as the religion of peace.

    Therefore, to disassociate Islam from such violent attacks and attackers, many Islamic leaders globally condemning terrorism (http://rissc.jo/condemning-terrorism/) it condemns the violence associated with islam and has a massive list of very well credentialed signatories representing muslims from everywhere in the world, people that are heavily qualified, because this is not what Islam teaches. I dont think any religion will urge its followers to go and kaboom themselves in public places to inflict maximum damage towards poor civilians.

    Now if you look at post # 2, wherein Mohan raised red flags and called Islam is not religion of piece, however, his questions were based on incorrect information and assumption.
     
  21. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
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    Ok let's have a look at his post...

    I fully agree with him here, the way we've handled the Asia Bibi case is disgraceful. We should be willing to accept our mistakes and hopefully learn from them.

    Again he has a point here. The death penalty for apostasy or changing your religion is very hypocritical. If Christians or Hindus advocated the death penalty for people from their religion who became Muslim how would you feel about that?

    Nothing wrong with this statement.

    Totally disagree, usually straight after a terror attack I see Muslims as one of the first if not the first person to condemn the attack if they learn the person is Muslim.

    This is a Hindu religious argument against all meat eaters, it doesn't only apply to Muslims. It applies to all meat eaters. A bit of a silly statement to make. A child should know that an animal has to be killed to provide meat, they shouldn't think that meat grows on trees.
     
  22. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    As I have said in my original response, will reiterate myself again.

    In Asia Bibi case, you can't generalize your views based on the actions of a small subset. Mostly illiterate villagers were part of protest against her, however, did supreme court changed its decision, (judges were also Muslims)? Many insane made profound statements against CJ and other judges who gave verdict in Asia's favor, however, it has nothing to do with religion. And in the end, their wish didnt come true.
     
  23. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

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    I wasn't referring to the villagers but the way the case has been handled. 10 years of someone's life in a prison is no joke. And the fact that she and her family still have to live the rest of their lives in hiding and in fear of their lives.

    It's ridiculous and a pretty jaahil episode in our countries history which will no doubt be repeated many times again. We should call these things out and accept that they are wrong, rather than trying to cover it up by doing whataboutery. Trying to point here there and everywhere trying to distract from the basic abuse of human rights that's happened.
     
  24. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    I miss understood you. However what you're saying is totally irrelevant to this subject.

    What happened in her case is failure of judiciary system and nobody has ever said that her case dealt fairly.
     
  25. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
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    How do you mean? Which law is being applied here? Religious or secular? Can we put a PPP or PMLN supporter in jail for 10 years just for saying things about Imran Khan?
     
  26. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

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    I didnt read the judgement so I am sorry I dont know which law was applied.

    And what PPP, PML-N or IK has do with all this?
     
  27. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

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    I was trying to understand what you meant by this not being relevant to that.

    She was accused of making blasphemous comments so she was tried under religious law not secular. I was saying that's why it's relevant here.

    It's not like she made political or anti-nationalist comments.
     
  28. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

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    Indeed it is, because Mohan never questioned about the law according to which Asia was sentenced. He raised a point against those who were holding protest and demanded the beheading of Asia bibi.
     
  29. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
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    Are we still talking about Mohan? I thought we were talking about the Asia Bibi incident in relation the image of Islam as a religion of peace.

    Going back to Mohan's point. Why were these people holding protests and demanding the beheading of Asia Bibi. Was it secular or religious? Would they be holding these protests if she robbed a bank or killed a child or abused the Prime Minister?

    If not, then it is relevant.
     
  30. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

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    The whole discussion started with what Mohan asked, thats why I said it was irrelevant.

    Of course those villagers were protesting against her based on religious grounds, but for nth time, how many literate, knowledgeable were part of that event?
     
  31. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

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    If the question was 'Is Islam the Religion of Peace' and an explanation was it is not if one of the laws of Islam leads to people taking to the streets to behead someone for blasphemy. Then how is that not relevant?

    It's cause and effect. Would these people be doing what they did if there was no law or Islamic principle requiring punishment for blasphemy?
     
  32. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    Since you're bent upon converting discussion towards punishment for blasphemy, which wasn't even questioned by the questionnaire, I am curious to know what is your understand of Islam law of blasphemy? Not challenging your knowledge but only wants to know your understand of what Islam says about blasphemy?

    More to the point, I hope you know that different traditional schools of jurisprudence prescribe different punishment for blasphemy, depending on whether the blasphemer is Muslim or non-Muslim, a man or a woman. Furthermore, the laws pertaining to blasphemy vary by country, so why not all Muslim countries enforce same law as per Islam?
     
  33. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

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    I dont remember the exact punishment as per each school but the punishment for an unrepentant blasphemer is the same in all the schools, death.

    I guess with your Muslim woman comment you're referring to the fact that not all schools prescribe execution for a muslim woman. But the ones that don't require death for Muslim women do state that she must be imprisoned and punished till she either repents or she dies in custody. So a life sentence. Although she is more likely to die from the punishments before old age kills her.

    I take it you're aware of the hadiths which refer to the incidents with Ka'b and Asma bint Marwan and others? What's your thoughts on those in this context?

    Also what is your understanding on the laws of blasphemy and why dont you think they play a part in the way people in Muslim countries react to blasphemy charges?
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  34. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    My understand is different, because Quran should be used as reference and there is nothing in the Quran or the authentic teachings of Prophet Muhammad (PBUM) justifying the killing of people for opposing, criticizing, humiliating or showing irreverence toward holy personages, religious artifacts, customs and beliefs of Islam.

    The is what Quran says:

    upload_2019-3-1_13-1-25.png

    upload_2019-3-1_13-2-41.png

    If blasphemy was punishable by death in Islam, then the Prophet Muhammad (PBUM) would have been the first one to order the killing of hundreds of his foes, who later became his closest companions. Because with the exception of a very few earlier Arabs who accepted the Prophet Muhammad (PBUM) as the Messenger of Allah, the majority of people of Makkah opposed him, humiliated him, cursed or blasphemed him or even tried to kill him, yet he preferred to practice forgiveness and to seek the divine mercy for them.

    I am sure you must have heard this, the old woman who used to throw garbage on Prophet Muhammad (PBUM) was visited by him when he did not see her throwing it anymore to learn that she was not well.

    When Suhail bin Amr, a poet who composed poetry blaspheming the Prophet Muhammad (PBUM) was taken as a prisoner of war after the battle of Badr, the Prophet Muhammad (PBUM) asked his companions to show kindness toward him.

    There are examples after examples to prove that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUM) never resorted to violence against those who were showing utter disrespect to him.
     
  35. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
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    Of course. I've quoted this story many times myself. However, somebody once told me that I shouldn't repeat this story because it is fake and there is no known hadith which this story is based on. So I searched for the references for this story and I found that there are no references. This is a fake Hadith like the Hadith which says go as far as China to seek knowledge or the hadith which says the pen is mightier than the sword.

    Since I can find no reference for this story I don't repeat it anymore. If you or anyone else has the reference and can show it is a genuine hadith then I would love to see it.

    The verse you quoted states that the reason not to blaspheme against other religions is to prevent the people of those religions from blaspheming against Islam. You're right in saying that there is no direct death penalty within the Quran for blasphemy or at least not one that I'm aware of. However, there are sunnah/hadith which do advocate the death penalty.

    That is one instance in the early days of Islam. I believe Suhayl also later became a Muslim after the conquest of Makkah.

    There are examples of his kindness and forgiveness but it's not true to say that violence was never used. There are examples where blasphemers were executed. For example, Asma Bint Marwan, Ka'ab ibn al-Ashraf, the blind man and his blaspheming slave woman. The blasphemy laws are derived from his life and the Sunnah.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
  36. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    And who derived those blasphemy laws, when it doesnt come from God and his prophet?

    Because as I said, Prophet Muhammad (PBUM) never resorted to violence neither I find any verse in Quran which advocates death penalty.
     
  37. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
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    Have you researched or looked at any of the cases I named for you? The Hadith are very clear on what happened. What's your statement based on if you haven't checked those yet?
     
  38. pat
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    pat Youngsta Beauty

    Nov 25, 2018
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    Damn Merc. that is some serious wood you are dishing out. Remind me not to get sideways with you.
     

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