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Who was the greatest pace bowler of all time combining tests and ODI's?

Discussion in 'Cricket Talk' started by Harsh Thakor, Jul 15, 2020.

Who was the best fast bowler ever combining test matches and ODI'S equally?

  1. Wasim Akram

    83.3%
  2. Waqar Younus

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Imran Khan

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Dennis Lillee

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Dale Steyn

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Andy Roberts

    0 vote(s)
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  7. Joel Garner

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Richard Hadlee

    0 vote(s)
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  9. Glen Mcgrath

    16.7%
  10. Malcolm Marshall

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. Michael Holding

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. Courtney Walsh

    0 vote(s)
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  13. Kapil Dev

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  14. Curtly Ambrose

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  15. Alan Donald

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  16. Jimmy Anderson

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

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  1. Harsh Thakor
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    Harsh Thakor Youngsta Beauty

    May 5, 2011
    489
    In this list I am ranking in order of merit the best pace bowlers of all time in order of merit combing test cricket with One day Internationals.

    1.Wasim Akram

    Took wizardry to regions unexplored in the manner of a magician.No paceman was ever as versatile or creative as Wasim who took art of reverse swing to depths of divinty.With proper support from the fielders could have had 1000 International scalps.In peak period from 1990-98 in terms of bowling average overshadowed Waqar,Donald and Ambrose and had a greater percentage of wickets in test wins than Imran.Nobody came close to Wasim's 502 scalps in ODI's which included prize scalps in the 1992 world cup final and in the 1997 triangular series in Australia.Mcgrath won many more tests but played for a much better side. On flat tracks Wasim to me was above everyone.I feel Overall Wasim was the more penetrative or lethal bowler than Mcgrath ,who could make more crucial break throughs.Wasim unlike Mcgrath and Ambrose, did not have an 8 wicket haul but had more 10 wicket hauls in tests and more 5 wicket hauls in ratio to tests.





    2.Glen Mcgrath

    The most intelligent paceman ever who blended every ingredient of a fast bowler in perfect proportion.No paceman posessed more control or could judge a batsmen's weaknesses so clinically.Even if he lacked genuine pace he could be more lethal than the quickest with his nagging length in the corridor.Wasim swung the ball more and Ambrose could be even more relentless bt both could not equal Glen as a metronome.Unlike Marshall Mcgrath was brilliant in ODI's,particularly as a first change bowler.In tests no paceman ever came close to his staggering haul of 563 scalps.Played in 84 tests won by his country which is remarkable and was one of the architects of era of world cup victories.





    3.Dennis Lillee

    Classically the most complete of all pace bowlers,revealing ferocity and agression as no pacemen ever did.A great match-winner who could master even docile surfaces like at the Oval in 1972 and Melbourne in 1979-80.Morally had 460 test scalps if you include his wickets in Kerry Packer supertests from 1977-79 and in games against rest of the world in 1972.In ODI's at his best gave some startling performances and was very economical. Averaged less than 21 in ODI's which was praiseworthy.





    4.Richard Hadlee

    Statistically the best paceman ever if you combine average ,with wickets per test and no of 5 and 10 wicket hauls.Bore the brunt of one of the weakest bowling attacks and yet at his peak captured 330 scalps in 60 tests from 1978-88.On a green top the best of all ,who bar Mcgrath had more control than any fast bowler ever.Arguably the equal of Mcgrath in test cricket posessing greater speed and more movement.In ODI's as lethal as anybody,particularly in initial overs.




    5.Malcolm Marshall

    The most complete pace bowler ever even if not the most classical or quickest .Did not swing the ball so much but mastered art of swerve and skidding bounce which virtually made it unreadable for the batsmen to judge.Disguised seam movement better than anyone.In test cricket the best of them all with his 20.94 average and strike rate of 46.7 ,outclassing giants who comprised his attack like Garner,Holding and Roberts.Not at his best in ODI's averaging around 26 and at times expensive in crucial games,particularly down under.


    6.Joel Garner

    With Ambrose the most accurate of all fast bowlers and only 2nd to Wasim in ODI's.No bowler had as good a yorker or could make ball lift as disconcertingly from a good length in his day,than Joel.For a time in the 1980'she was a more daunting proposition than any paceman.Phenomenal test average of 20.97 and unfortunately rarely got a chance to open with the new ball.In ODI's averaged around 18 which was phenomenal.



    7.Alan Donald

    Took pace bowling mastery to heights few ever did blending speed of lightning with subtle variations.At full throttle more of a terror than even Steyn.I can never forget his bowling in England in 1998 when he had 33 scalps nor his spell v Australia in the 1st final of the triangular tournament which won game pulling of a Houdini act.Averaged around 21 in ODI's capturing 4 or more wickets 11 times.In tests had a remarkable strike rtae of 47 balls per wicket at an avergae of 22.25.Rated above Steyn because he averaged 4 runs less at around 21 and had 7 more 4or more wicket hauls in ODI's.



    8.Waqar Younus

    The faster bowler of his era and best exponent of the yorker.Best strike rate in tests of anyone of 43.7 in his day .Phenomenal 416 scalps in ODI's with 23 ,4-wicket hauls.




    9.Curtly Ambrose
    The most accurate of all and the best on a broken wicket,particularly in a 4th innings.Ambose took hostility to its crescendo like none in his era,and was more relentless than anyone.Noone was his equal in defending 4th innings targets as he showed against England at Trinidad in 1994 and at Barbados v South Africa in 1992 .At Pert in 1992-93 his 7-22 was arguably the best ever bowling spell on a fast track .



    10.Dale Steyn

    No paceman bowled a fuller length or was faster in his day ,or who was a better exponent of the oustwinger.Similar to Marshall.but did not have as deadly an inswinger.At his best on flat subcontinent tacks,with mastery of reverse swing .




    11.Imran Khan

    The pioneer of reverse swing who statistically in tset cricket ranks amongst the best 4 best fast bowlers ever.Posessed almost the same level of agression and determination as Lillee,with speed close to Jeff Thomson at his fastest.Captured 7 or more wickets 5 times and averaged around 13 in games won,which was remarkable.Responsible for Pakistan winning their first test series in England and in the moral sense their first in West Indies in 1988,when dubious umpiring robbed them of the prestige.In ODI's at his best in 1987 world cup with 17 scalps and also at Sharjah in 1985 when taking six wickets for 12 runs.





    12.Andy Roberts

    The closest to Lillee classically,having twowbouncers of different speeds,an oustwinger,off-cutter and slower ball.The father figure of the great Carribean pace quartet.At one time achieved 100 wickets in fastest time ever and till 1977 averaged around 23.on flat tracks in India singlehandedly spearheaded the attack taking 32 wickets.Most succesful Calypso bowler in WSC supertests with 50 scalps.Inspite of aging best West Indies bowler in 1983 prudential cup and v India in home series in 1983.Bowled some of the best spell sin ODI games like against England in 1979-80 in Australia and in a WSC supertest in 1978.More economical average on ODI's than Marshal or Holding and better strike rate.




    I have ranked Joel Garner ahead of Ambrose and Steyn because of staggering statss in ODI's and phenomenal bowling tset average .Marshall is at 5 because I feel Lillee,Hadlee etc wee significantly better in ODI's.Donald ahead of Styen because of comparative ODI performances.
     
  2. Don Quixote
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    Don Quixote Whispering Death

    Nov 13, 2015
    8,812
    No way Wasim Akram is number one.

    Glenn McGrath, undisputedly for me.
     
  3. Harsh Thakor
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    Harsh Thakor Youngsta Beauty

    May 5, 2011
    489
    Why do you say this?Was not Wasim ranked the hardest to face by Lara,Kallis and Viv?Did not Wasim get much less support and still win so many international games?Compare performances on flat tracks or unhelpful conditions.Atleast touch and go.More peole chose Wasim in all-time XI than Mcgrath,who was more complete.
     
  4. Shahzad.Firdous
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    Shahzad.Firdous Cornered Tiger

    May 29, 2010
    12,446
    Shoaib Akhtar should have been part of the discussion.

    Wasim Akram ke ilawa no other choice.. Wasim se acha fast bowler aur bowler koi nahi aaya cricket ki history mein.. Warne se acha spinner nahi aaya Wasim se acha fast bowler nahi aaya.. McGrath 2nd best.. Murali 2nd best spinner... Shoaib Akhtar 3rd best.. Saqlain 3rd best arguably alongwith Kumble..
     
  5. Harsh Thakor
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    Harsh Thakor Youngsta Beauty

    May 5, 2011
    489
    What about Malcolm Marshall?
     
  6. MR__KHAN__JI
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    MR__KHAN__JI Talented

    Sep 5, 2010
    1,631
    Strike rates need to be very very high on the criteria list for considering the best bowlers...

    Arguably the number 1 (albeit not the only) criteria.

    The second most important criteria is whether you value "longevity" vs "sustained peak" - for me sustained peak is much more important than longevity.

    The third most important criteria is the quality of opposition faced.


    Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
     
  7. Harsh Thakor
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    Harsh Thakor Youngsta Beauty

    May 5, 2011
    489
    Agree with my list?Wasim Akram?
     
  8. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,644
    I would take Ambrose over Donald in my team any day of the week, and twice on weekends.


    Glen McGrath was also someone who needed a particular environment to be accurate n effective.
    If the weather or pitch conditions were slightly off, he would lose his potency.

    Wasim on the other hand was something else.
    Make him bowl any place between the Sahara desert to mountains of Tibet, or from the underground tunnels to the space station near the moon, and he would spell the magic like a peace of cake.
     
  9. Harsh Thakor
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    Harsh Thakor Youngsta Beauty

    May 5, 2011
    489
    You said it. Put it beautifully on Wasim.Well done.

    I disagree on Donald who was a better ODI bowler than Ambrose and more versatile and quicker.In test cricket I agree with you.

    What do you feel about Joel Garner and Dale Steyn?
     
  10. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,644
    Dale Steyn was a brutal force with a lil hint of arrogance. I must acknowledge and appreciate his talent and his hard work to carry on the flagship of pace bowling in an era where the batsmen are crowned while the art of pace bowling has been dragged into dirt.

    Just imagine the scenario,

    A group of young kids watching a T20 game.
    The pace bowler runs in and delivers fiery delivery, batsman ducks down, the ball hits the periscope and lands outside the boundary for a six in a 55 meter boundary.
    The next two ball, the batsman tries an agriculture swing and gets two sixes on mistimed flukes. The bowler delivers a bouncer which is given a no ball because it went above the lamer's head.
    The pace bowler is now panting like a dog as he gets a six and a four on the next two balls because the tree trunk used by the batsman in the name of a cricket bat, is too much for the fielders to run their sorry a$$ in such a small ground.

    You ask the kids, "Who wants to become a pace bowler?"
    And you hear a silence of death in return.

    Steyn was a hero and a warrior who fought this battle on his own.


    The Big Bird on the other hand was a work of art.
    I remember he once sent down in a good length ball, the batsman took it above the knee role and clearly outside of the off stump.
    Garner turned and charged in rage towards the umpire with both his hands raised as he was appealing at the top of his lungs.
    The umpire clearly knowing it was "not out", raised his finger out of fear of his life.
     
  11. thair9999
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    thair9999 Emerging Player

    Oct 17, 2010
    581
    My top 5

    1 Wasim Akram
    2 Malcolm Marshall
    3 Glen Mcgrath
    4 Curtly Ambrose
    5 Dennis Lillee
     
  12. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,644
    With your inherent bias that I usually feel in your posts, I was pleasantly surprised to see that Kapil didnt make it to the list of 12 finalists.
    Otherwise, I was expecting him to be # 2 or 3 on YOUR list.
    Thanks for doing a good and honest job for a change.
     
  13. Patriot
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    Patriot Kaptaan

    Oct 8, 2014
    26,166
    I am gona rate the Best bowler by how they did when the team totally relied on them

    This.

    I don't know if I have ever seen Wasim fail when the team relied on him totally. McGrath had a few fail outings.
    but Akram was a BEAST
     
  14. ASLI-PATHAN
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    ASLI-PATHAN Cricistan Khan

    Apr 26, 2011
    64,583
    Imran Khan was a beast on his day on any kind of surface.

    Don't agree with Wasim as No. 1

    Malcolm Marshall was a beast in Tests but played less ODIs so he can't be in this list.

    I would put Waqar over Wasim in this list. 373 test wickets and 416 ODI wickets at mind blowing SR and average.
     
  15. ASLI-PATHAN
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    ASLI-PATHAN Cricistan Khan

    Apr 26, 2011
    64,583
    Means you had not witnessed all the games where Wasim played. He disappointed us a lot.
     
  16. Don Quixote
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    Don Quixote Whispering Death

    Nov 13, 2015
    8,812
    Glenn McGrath won 3 WCs for his team, won a Test series (against good teams of his time) in every country, more Test wickets than Wasim Akram, dominated the greatest batsmen of all time like no one else (Sachin and Brian), etc. He was one of the main contributor to probably the most dominant side ever in cricket history.

    @Patriot this is for you as well.
     
  17. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,644
    No.
    Glen had the support of a team that was full of world class megastars.
    And it had a GREAT impact on victory rate of the Australian team.
    McGrath hardly had any magic in his bowling - he was strictly a line and length bowler and indeed, VERY GOOD at it.
     
  18. Don Quixote
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    Don Quixote Whispering Death

    Nov 13, 2015
    8,812
    He had a major influence in their domination, as he was the leader of the bowling attack. Even if he was strictly line and length bowler, he still won 3 WCs for his team, which is not a joke. He was great to watch. Stats and performances back him up as the greatest fast bowler of all time.
     
  19. Patriot
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    Patriot Kaptaan

    Oct 8, 2014
    26,166
    in how many of those WC was he MOM ?

    Shane Warne was MOM in 99

    Ponting was in 2003

    Gilchrist was in 2007

    McGrath did got big wickets in those finals
     
  20. Harsh Thakor
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    Harsh Thakor Youngsta Beauty

    May 5, 2011
    489
    Very good point.Wasim won more motm awards than Mcgrath.
     
  21. Shahzad.Firdous
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    Shahzad.Firdous Cornered Tiger

    May 29, 2010
    12,446
    My top 5:

    1. Wasim Akram
    2. McGrath
    3. Shoaib Akhtar
    4. Imran Khan / Mohd Asif
    5. Waqar Younus / Ambrose
     
  22. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,644
    Your top 5 and no Misbah?
     
  23. Shahzad.Firdous
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    Shahzad.Firdous Cornered Tiger

    May 29, 2010
    12,446
    Its about fast bowlers..
     
  24. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,644
    So what?
    You are a Misbah fan after all.
     
  25. thair9999
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    thair9999 Emerging Player

    Oct 17, 2010
    581
    Because Misbah is above all, Zeus of cricket and no one can touch him. These top 5 are mere mortals.
     
  26. Mad Genius
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    Mad Genius Fantasy Draft Wins: 4

    Oct 6, 2014
    10,126
    Wasim is probably the greatest ODI pacer of all time and among top 10 pacers in tests. Waqar comes close in tests but no where near Wasim in ODI's
     
  27. ASLI-PATHAN
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    ASLI-PATHAN Cricistan Khan

    Apr 26, 2011
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    If you had watched their careers you wouldn't say this.
     
  28. Mad Genius
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    Mad Genius Fantasy Draft Wins: 4

    Oct 6, 2014
    10,126
    Strictly both formats combined with 60% weightage given to tests:

    1- Wasim Akram
    2- Glenn Mcgrath
    3- Richard Hadlee
    4- Joel Garner
    5- Curtly Ambrose
    6- Allan Donald
    7- Dennis Lillee
    8- Imran Khan
    9- Malcolm Marshal
    10- Dale Steyn
     
  29. ASLI-PATHAN
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    ASLI-PATHAN Cricistan Khan

    Apr 26, 2011
    64,583
    60% Weightage to tests and Marshall & Imran at 9 & 8? LOL
     
  30. ASLI-PATHAN
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    ASLI-PATHAN Cricistan Khan

    Apr 26, 2011
    64,583
    @maddgenius do you know the Strike rate of Wasim in tests?
     
  31. ASLI-PATHAN
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    ASLI-PATHAN Cricistan Khan

    Apr 26, 2011
    64,583
    Wasim - 54.6
    Waqar- 43.1

    These are their SR in Tests. SR is the best criteria to judge a bowler's ability in tests, Because you need to get 20 opposition wickets.

    Waqar is the second best after Steyn with 300 test wickets according to SR.
     
  32. Mad Genius
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    Mad Genius Fantasy Draft Wins: 4

    Oct 6, 2014
    10,126
    Said 60%. Not 80%

    If I arrange the same list of players for tests only:

    1- Marshall
    2- Imran
    3- Hadlee
    4- Mcgrath
    5- Lillee
    6- Steyn
    7- Wasim
    8- Donald
    9- Ambrose
    10- Garner

    ODI's:

    1- Wasim
    2- Garner
    3- Mcgrath
    4- Hadlee
    5- Ambrose
    6- Donald
    7- Lillee
    8- Imran
    9- Marshall
    10- Steyn
     
  33. ASLI-PATHAN
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    ASLI-PATHAN Cricistan Khan

    Apr 26, 2011
    64,583
    Wasim was a fine bowler but no way better than Waqar or Imran.
     
  34. ASLI-PATHAN
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    ASLI-PATHAN Cricistan Khan

    Apr 26, 2011
    64,583
    Waqar was a type of bowler who would blow away any batting lineup in a single spell.
     
  35. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,644
    It's difficult to pick one.
    Waqar was perhaps mostly a trick pony and EXTREMELY good at it.

    But Wasim on the other hand was something else. Just look at his magic, he STILL swings like a magician.

    Even the great Glenn McGrath says, "Wasim is the ULTIMATE fast bowler".



    And then check this one.

     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
  36. Mad Genius
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    Mad Genius Fantasy Draft Wins: 4

    Oct 6, 2014
    10,126
    Waqar was a one trick pony especially in early part of his career. Relied mostly on reverse swing with older ball. Wasn't a very skilled new ball bowler. This is why he has a beastly record in Asia where ball reverses (apart from india where he averages 76)

    Avg of 40+ in Australia
    76 in India
    28 in SA
    27 in England
    27 in NZ

    Compare it Wasim who performed everywhere and was equally dangerous with the new ball as he was with the old and had every trick in his bag.

    There is a reason Ashwin and Jadeja are not rated despite having better averages than even Shane Warne. Even Indians themselves don't rate them among top 5 Indian spinners (Below Bedi, Gupte, Prasanna, Chandra and Kumble) let alone the world
     
  37. Mad Genius
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    Mad Genius Fantasy Draft Wins: 4

    Oct 6, 2014
    10,126
    If you have rated Wasim at top while Imran at 11 because of same weightage given to both formats then Garner surely has to be above Marshall as Garner is legit top 3 ODI bowler of all time whereas Marshall isn't even among top 20. Also, Lillee is rated a bit high imo. Hadlee should be ahead of him
     
  38. Harsh Thakor
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    Harsh Thakor Youngsta Beauty

    May 5, 2011
    489
    Very well portrayed that Wasim was overall better considering performances against top teams.Wasim was more verstaile than Waqar,even if not as quick.We must remember how opposing batsmen compared the duo. Waqar was ofcourse great ,posessing the most deadly yorker and pace.
     
  39. Harsh Thakor
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    Harsh Thakor Youngsta Beauty

    May 5, 2011
    489
    Very well done-analytical list.

    Still I feel in tests you overrate Imran as ahead of Mcgrath ,Lillee and Hadlee or even Wasim and Ambrose.Remember the extent to which Hadlee bore the brunt of a weak team capturing 330 scalps in peak period taking 5 and a half wickets per test.Also remember he too took 36 5 wicket hauls and 7-10 wkt.hauls.

    Mcgrath's staggering haul of 563 scalps and average of 21.64 should also rank him 2-3 ,ahead of Imran.Mcgrath also did well on the sub-continent and in 84 tests played in match-winning causes.


    Lillee adding WSC supertsets and games v rest of the world had 460 test scalps with 31-5 wkt.hauls.He captured 5 wickets per tset with a better strike rate than Imran.

    Ambrose was virtually on par with Imran being the best ever on bad pitches and in 4th innings-No paceman more accurate or relentless.Average of 20.99 speaks for itself.


    Wasim by a fraction ahead of Imran if you consider tset career overall and the competitivity of eras.Wasim was statistically the bst from 1990-98 and better than Imran in the 1st and final part of the career.Their avegae and strike rate is very similar but Wasim bowled in a more challenging era.
     
  40. Harsh Thakor
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    Harsh Thakor Youngsta Beauty

    May 5, 2011
    489
    Well done .Very well analyzed.Maybe Imran and Marshall too low,or even Lillee.
     

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