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Would you rather choose to be put on a ventilator or die?

Discussion in 'The Pavilion' started by Munna, Jun 15, 2020.

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  1. Munna
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    Munna Moderator-e-Aala

    Oct 4, 2014
    28,487
    Sensitive topic but I was having a casual discussion today when couple of my friends said they've already informed their families to rather let them die than to put them on machines like ventilator if the time comes.

    I've seen ventilators myself and I know it is an agonizing life support system with a lot of after-effects as well if the patient survives.

    But why not if it it is the only option that may help you live longer?

    Even from an Islamic perspective, isn't it a conscious attempt to die or commit suicide in other words which is sinful?

    Posters having a medical background may provide a different picture here but I'm just trying to understand the common thought process of people about going through the pain of life and death here.
     
  2. Mercenary
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    Mercenary The Lone Wolf

    Dec 17, 2009
    16,711
    From what I've read. You might actually have a better survival rate staying off the ventilators...

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...eath-rates-china-wuhan-us-cases-a9458541.html

    There's been a few studies showing that those on ventilators are dying at abnormally high percentages. I'm not sure if this is because of the ventilator or because those being put on ventilators are probably about to die anyway and the ventilator is the last attempt to save them.
     
  3. Passionate Pakistani
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    Passionate Pakistani Fantasy Draft Wins: 1

    Jun 10, 2011
    68,366
    Lately I have seen quite a few people dying after going through illness and been on ventilator etc.

    Personally I would prefer to live a healthy life and die as a healthy person rather than going through all sufferings and mental stress and inconvience for others


    This is why i believe there is no point living after you cross 75 unless you have a very strong immune system and still enjoying a healthy life.

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
     
  4. Mars
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    Mars Talented

    Apr 23, 2012
    2,699
    Ventilator is not necessary for 'saving your life' Islamically speaking. You can do your research but medical treatments are not 'Wajib' in Islamic terms.
     
  5. Patriot
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    Patriot Kaptaan

    Oct 8, 2014
    26,190
    so getting better knowing u can is not mandatory in Islam ?
     
  6. Mars
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    Mars Talented

    Apr 23, 2012
    2,699
    The Fuqaha have divided Asbaab into three categories.

    The first is called Asbaab e Yaqeeniya in which you are nearly guaranteed of the results that you will get. Like drinking water when you're thirsty and eating food when you're hungry. Leaving these Asbaab is haraam if you're facing death and using them is not against Tawakkul.

    The second is Asbaab e Zanni - in which you have a degree of uncertainty in it's guarantee of working like medicines and treatments. To do such treatments are allowed but leaving them isn't prohibited either and it is not against Tawakkul to leave using them. If one dies without treatment, it would not be Haraam.

    Third Asbaab are Asbaab e Wahmi (delusionary) - in which there's no level of certainty in using them like Taweez and stones etc. Leaving them is necessary to have proper tawakkul.
     
  7. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,662
    I am not a scholar but the second one is iffy.
    In Quran, there are indications where Allah says that he has put "Shifaa" or remedy/cure in certain things (for example Honey, Milk etc), which I think means, when you get sick, seek medical help in effort to get cured.

    Lets say, a person dies by refusing to take medical help that would've attempted to provide him cure or relief. And now he is presented in the court of Allah where he is asked by God that why didn't you seek a cure for your illness when in Quran I indicated to Muslims that I have created certain things to cure your illness.

    What should be this man's answer?

    You may also know the famous book called "Tibb-e-Nabwai (saw), and even if a few hadeeth of that book are authentic then it clearly tells us to seek medical help/remedy when we get sick.

    Where in that book or in Quran, is the indication to leave it alone and do nothing when you get sick?

    I mean, there is a situation when some patients sign the DNR which usually means, don't put me on ventilator when that's the last option to save me from a sickness that is not treatable.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
  8. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,662
    And I think this is something that I agree with.
    Are you also talking about signing the DNR?
     
  9. Mars
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    Mars Talented

    Apr 23, 2012
    2,699
    There's a huge difference between doing something for your illness and going over the top for your illness.

    Machines and ventilators are definitely not the cure that Allah has sent down in the Quran.

    I would also like to add that it is the belief of Ahlus Sunnah (written in the oldest possible books of creed) that the time for our death is one. What that essentially means is that if you died during a car accident, the real cause of your death wasnt the crash that took place but because of the decision of God for you and that simultaneously took place with the accident or after it. If, for instance, you had not been in car, you would've died elsewhere, perhaps, on your bed.

    Now switch back to the medicine and death correlation and ponder on why you think that medicine will definitely save the patient despite his time of death?
    Medicine is a sabab/apparent cause, and we're ordained to use the apparent cause without believing that the world is mechanical creation where God sits back and things are being done without His specific orders at each given instance. It is not like a simulation or a movie on "Play" but rather according to a verse: a single leaf doesn't move from its place except that it is with the order and knowledge of Allah.
    Muslims will use apparent causes but will never believe them to be curing them, for instance. This is why, using mechanical processes to save someone is not Wajib on us. Trying to cure is definitely Sunnah.

    Hard to swallow but I can prove all of the above through Quranic verses and through books of creed which have been unanimously approved by all of the sects.
     
  10. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,662
    No, I agree with it and this is what I said as well.

    If a patient signs a DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) which primarily means do not put me on ventilators etc, then it's OK.

    However, you said, "If one dies without treatment, it would not be Haraam".

    And I am a little baffled.
    How is one's death classified as "Haram or Halal"? Death is death.

    Are you talking about death by suicide that is being considered haram?

    Suicide in Islam is prohibited, yes; however, I am not sure if I ever heard that it makes one's death "haraam"?

    Do we have a Quranic or Hadeeth reference that talks about "haraam death"? I am open to learn.

    Also,
    I am assuming when you referred to "treatment" in Asbab-e-Zanni, you meant putting patients on mechanical devices such a ventilator BUT you used the words "medicine" in which you have a degree of uncertainty in it's guarantee of working.

    Now mind you, taking a medicine in an effort to cure oneself is different from signing a DNR for example.

    You said time of death is fixed by Allah. Yes, totally agreed.
    However, we don't know that time. So putting an effort within our means is what it's all about.
     
  11. Mars
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    Mars Talented

    Apr 23, 2012
    2,699
    Putting an "effort" is a vague term. A guy who barely makes money for his daily usages, would his effort be different from another person? Effort is not equal to mechanical treatment by putting him on ventilators regardless of the DNR.
    Medicine and DNR are both equal with regards to their success rate. If there's a proper plan of recovery on the ventilator, then it is useful for a patient otherwise it's not a solution.


    With regards to your other question of suicide and haram death; yes there are many instances of such deaths in the Hadith.


    Narrated Abu Huraira: We were in the company of Allah’s Apostle in a ghazwa, and he remarked about a man who claimed to be a Muslim, saying, “This (man) is from the people of the (Hell) Fire.” When the battle started, the man fought violently till he got wounded. Somebody said, “O Allah’s Apostle! The man whom you described as being from the people of the (Hell) Fire fought violently today and died.” The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “He will go to the (Hell) Fire.” Some people were on the point of doubting (the truth of what the Prophet (peace be upon him) had said) while they were in this state, suddenly someone said that he was still alive but severely wounded. When night fell, he lost patience and committed suicide. The Prophet (peace be upon him) was informed of that, and he said, “Allah is Greater! I testify that I am Allah’s Slave and His Apostle.” Then he ordered Bilal to announce amongst the people: “None will enter Paradise but a Muslim, and Allah may support this religion (i.e. Islam) even with a disobedient man.”

    There was amongst those before you a man who had a wound. He was in [such] anguish that he took a knife and made with it a cut in his hand, and the blood did not cease to flow till he died. Allah the Almighty said: My servant has himself forestalled Me; I have forbidden him Paradise


    Narrated Sahl bin Sad As Saidi: Allah’s Apostle (and his army) encountered the pagans and the two armies fought and then Allah’s Apostle returned to his army camps and the others (i.e. the enemy) returned to their army camps. Amongst the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) there was a man who could not help pursuing any single isolated pagan to strike him with his sword. Somebody said, “None has benefited the Muslims today more than so-and-so.” On that Allah’s Apostle said, “He is from the people of the Hell-Fire certainly.” A man amongst the people (i.e. Muslims) said, “I will accompany him (to know the fact).” So he went along with him, and whenever he stopped he stopped with him, and whenever he hastened, he hastened with him. The (brave) man then got wounded severely, and seeking to die at once, he planted his sword into the ground and put its point against his chest in between his breasts, and then threw himself on it and committed suicide. On that the person (who was accompanying the deceased all the time) came to Allah’s Apostle and said, “I testify that you are the Apostle of Allah.” The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “Why is that (what makes you say so)?” He said “It is concerning the man whom you have already mentioned as one of the dwellers of the Hell-Fire. The people were surprised by your Statement, and I said to them, “I will try to find out the truth about him for you.” So I went out after him and he was then inflicted with a severe wound and because of that, he hurried to bring death upon himself by planting the handle of his sword into the ground and directing its tip towards his chest between his breasts, and then he threw himself over it and committed suicide.” Allah’s Apostle then said, “A man may do what seem to the people as the deeds of the dwellers of Paradise but he is from the dwellers of the Hell-Fire and another may do what seem to the people as the deeds of the dwellers of the Hell-Fire, but he is from the dwellers of Paradise.”
    Sahih Al-Bukhari – Book 59 Hadith 514

    Narrated Thabit bin Ad Dahhak: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “Whoever intentionally swears falsely by a religion other than Islam, then he is what he has said, (e.g. if he says, ‘If such thing is not true then I am a Jew,’ he is really a Jew). And whoever commits suicide with piece of iron will be punished with the same piece of iron in the Hell Fire.” Narrated Jundab, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him.”
    Sahih Al-Bukhari – Book 23 Hadith 445

    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself, will be in the (Hell) Fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever; and whoever drinks poison and kills himself with it, he will be carrying his poison in his hand and drinking it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever; and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, will be carrying that weapon in his hand and stabbing his abdomen with it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever.”
    Sahih Al-Bukhari – Book 71 Hadith 670

    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire.”
    Sahih Al-Bukhari – Book 23 Hadith 446
     
  12. Mars
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    Mars Talented

    Apr 23, 2012
    2,699
    Basically; death will remain death but the Sabab e Zahiri (apparent cause of death) could be a righteous deed or an unrighteous deed. Killing yourself is one of the biggest apparent unrighteous deed which is absolutely haraam.
    And thus, the death being called haraam death (it is an Urdu phrase which I translated to English) opposite of Shahadat where death is considered as a gift from God.
     
  13. ShokoTolo_LoloMoto
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    ShokoTolo_LoloMoto Talented

    Apr 16, 2010
    1,662
    Again, you conveniently ignored the auxiliary part of my statement.

    Every person's ability to put an effort is different. And God will take this into consideration when we stand in his court and our efforts are judged.

    Suicide is forbidden in Islam, and we agree on it.

    I was just intrigued with this term "Haraam death" - sort of new to me, that's all.
     
  14. ASLI-PATHAN
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    ASLI-PATHAN Cricistan Khan

    Apr 26, 2011
    64,629
    Choosing to die is never an option for a Muslim. It is simply haram. So you had to fight till the last breath.
     

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